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"Why we fight" Even with all the problems in the West, with all that's broken at the moment in our end-stage capitalist societies, never forget that the altern

"Why we fight" Even with all the problems in the West, with all that's broken at the moment in our end-stage capitalist societies, never forget that the alternative, in almost all instances, is pure terror.

yieldcrv 3y ago
Never forget that American Exceptionalism relies on comparing itself to the most mismanaged places in the world, ignoring the existence of developed nations entirely We uniquely have the resources to be better and more advanced and create a more productive society with those resources, and merely lack the consensus to do so. There is no need to compare ourselves to anyone else to rationalize our incompetencies, consensus failures, or to spearhead development goals.
- qeest 3y ago
  west !== America.
- metaphor 3y ago
  Why merely compare ourselves to the most mismanaged places in the world when we can imitate them under everyones' nose[1] by directly importing the model into an oft forgotten small patch of American soil in the middle of the Pacific that's out of sight and out of mind, then entrap hordes of Chinese sweatshop laborers at slave wages, brutal hours, and deplorable living conditions to manufacture garments labeled "Made in USA" for a portfolio of popular household brands? You can't make this shit up...ask me how I know. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Abramoff_CNMI_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Abramoff_CNMI_scandal
  - yieldcrv 3y ago
    reminds me of the idea of derailing any conversation about business in the US because of labor practices in a far flung remote region that Congress refused to pass any reforms over Its how Americans talk about some other places so I always find that amusing
feedforward 3y ago
[flagged]
- infotainment 3y ago
  It's a good thing all conflicts are one-sided, with a clearly delineated good guy and bad guy, so that people on the internet can post simplistic takes like this.
- jojobas 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - FpUser 3y ago
    >"But they let themselves be led" People never "let themselves". They are owned by leaders that represent certain elites / thugs and do what they're told or else. West did not become "free" because common people suddenly revolted against the kings and pried away their piece of cake.
    - jojobas 3y ago
      Oh right, revolutions never happened. Also, Czechia never got rid of the commie stranglehold.
  - ram4jesus 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - cdelsolar 3y ago
      Was 10/7 just and necessary?
    - jojobas 3y ago
      These under 18s a brought up by Assud the Rabbit, the Jew-eating bunny. https://foreignpolicy.com/2008/02/15/look-its-a-jew-eating-bunny/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2008/02/15/look-its-a-jew-eating-b... Then at age 15 they go through Hamas's "youth training program". With some effort you can make almost the entire population beyond repair. West Bank might not be as bad, yet crowds cheered after the 7th October attacks. Arabs have been trying to eradicate the Jews ever since 1948, get their asses handed to them every time, yet somehow Israel is the villain.
jojobas 3y ago
>all that's broken at the moment in our end-stage capitalist societies That's a weird way to spell "the most prosperous time/space ever, where borderline poor people live like kings 200 years ago, and there are fewer and fewer poor people as time goes on and poverty threshold goes up".
- gsk22 3y ago
  Yes, poor people are better off in absolute terms than 200 years ago. No one is denying this. The question is more that, given how prosperous we are, and how much capital we have at our disposal, why do we still have so many poor people? Why is income inequality so bad?
  - jojobas 3y ago
    >Yes, poor people are better off in absolute terms than 200 years ago Not than poor people 200 years ago, than kings 200 years ago. No king of early 1800s could have tropical fruits, antibiotics or an entire library of human knowledge at his fingertips. >Why is income inequality so bad? Does a burger taste any worse if you know someone's having caviar? Also, how would you compare today's wealth inequality with that of 200 years ago, when peasants, being some 90% of the population, didn't own nearly anything at all?
    - woodruffw 3y ago
      > Does a burger taste any worse if you know someone's having caviar? Human beings have a fine-tuned sense of inequality and injustice; it's one of the things that makes us self-legislating agents, rather than beasts scrabbling for the top. The burger absolutely does taste worse if you know that it isn't a fair representation of the value of your labor. To make this more salient: your argument would apply to people living under repressive regimes as much as it does to content Westerners sitting at home. Or do you think that North Koreans in China have no right to object, given that their equivalent domestic forced labor would be even worse?
      - 3y ago
FpUser 3y ago
>"Even with all the problems in the West, with all that's broken at the moment in our end-stage capitalist societies, never forget that the alternative, in almost all instances, is pure terror." Our goal should be getting further and further away from "pure terror" year after year. Instead we have politicians fucking with our way of life, restricting more and more freedoms and telling us that the alternative is North Korea.
scotty79 3y ago
False dichotomy promoted by American oligarchs. North Korea isn't an alternative to technofeudalism we have now, let alone the only alternative.
chaostheory 3y ago
Late stage capitalism is still better than the late stage socialism in North Korea.
- kurthr 3y ago
  I agree, but to be fair... you can't call it socialism. NK has been a dictatorship for literally generations. Even SK has only been democratic for a relatively short time. Just because they put democratic or socialist or even communist in their name doesn't make them so.
  - chaostheory 3y ago
    The main problem with socialism is the centralization of power which means dictatorships aren’t mutually exclusive from communist systems. moreover unlike most of the world, North Korea still does not have a market economy. It is still a socialist system. It’s similar to the former nation of Yugoslavia when it was ruled by Tito.
  - xwolfi 3y ago
    But have we seen that many people calling themselves socialists not ending up with the same problem ? Socialism doesnt work because it doesnt consider greed as a positive force. Starting from there, every sign of greed is suppressed until remains only an oppressive bureaucracy in charge of hammering any sign of attempt of maybe earning something. Socialism is not evil, it's even benevolent: but it's flawed because it ignore 50% of human nature. Better let people deal with their greed in a monitored sandbox that averages out excesses. And that is never called socialism, since it derives too much from accepted socialist dogma. I live in Hong Kong, so I know how hard the balance is to strike. But socialism worked so little here that most people are 3rd generation immigrants who fled collectivisation, loss of property right and only desire to be left alone by the evangelists of a better world. It's hard to hear people who leave in free capitalist sandboxes lecture us about how socialism could maybe work. Try and weep, as we did.
    - kurthr 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
DinaCoder99 3y ago
> never forget that the alternative, in almost all instances Well, one shitty alternative alternative anyway

yieldcrv 3y ago

Never forget that American Exceptionalism relies on comparing itself to the most mismanaged places in the world, ignoring the existence of developed nations entirely We uniquely have the resources to be better and more advanced and create a more productive society with those resources, and merely lack the consensus to do so. There is no need to compare ourselves to anyone else to rationalize our incompetencies, consensus failures, or to spearhead development goals.

qeest 3y ago
west !== America.
metaphor 3y ago
Why merely compare ourselves to the most mismanaged places in the world when we can imitate them under everyones' nose[1] by directly importing the model into an oft forgotten small patch of American soil in the middle of the Pacific that's out of sight and out of mind, then entrap hordes of Chinese sweatshop laborers at slave wages, brutal hours, and deplorable living conditions to manufacture garments labeled "Made in USA" for a portfolio of popular household brands? You can't make this shit up...ask me how I know. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Abramoff_CNMI_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Abramoff_CNMI_scandal
- yieldcrv 3y ago
  reminds me of the idea of derailing any conversation about business in the US because of labor practices in a far flung remote region that Congress refused to pass any reforms over Its how Americans talk about some other places so I always find that amusing

feedforward 3y ago

[flagged]

infotainment 3y ago
It's a good thing all conflicts are one-sided, with a clearly delineated good guy and bad guy, so that people on the internet can post simplistic takes like this.
jojobas 3y ago
[flagged]
- FpUser 3y ago
  >"But they let themselves be led" People never "let themselves". They are owned by leaders that represent certain elites / thugs and do what they're told or else. West did not become "free" because common people suddenly revolted against the kings and pried away their piece of cake.
  - jojobas 3y ago
    Oh right, revolutions never happened. Also, Czechia never got rid of the commie stranglehold.
- ram4jesus 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - cdelsolar 3y ago
    Was 10/7 just and necessary?
  - jojobas 3y ago
    These under 18s a brought up by Assud the Rabbit, the Jew-eating bunny. https://foreignpolicy.com/2008/02/15/look-its-a-jew-eating-bunny/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2008/02/15/look-its-a-jew-eating-b... Then at age 15 they go through Hamas's "youth training program". With some effort you can make almost the entire population beyond repair. West Bank might not be as bad, yet crowds cheered after the 7th October attacks. Arabs have been trying to eradicate the Jews ever since 1948, get their asses handed to them every time, yet somehow Israel is the villain.

jojobas 3y ago

>all that's broken at the moment in our end-stage capitalist societies That's a weird way to spell "the most prosperous time/space ever, where borderline poor people live like kings 200 years ago, and there are fewer and fewer poor people as time goes on and poverty threshold goes up".

gsk22 3y ago
Yes, poor people are better off in absolute terms than 200 years ago. No one is denying this. The question is more that, given how prosperous we are, and how much capital we have at our disposal, why do we still have so many poor people? Why is income inequality so bad?
- jojobas 3y ago
  >Yes, poor people are better off in absolute terms than 200 years ago Not than poor people 200 years ago, than kings 200 years ago. No king of early 1800s could have tropical fruits, antibiotics or an entire library of human knowledge at his fingertips. >Why is income inequality so bad? Does a burger taste any worse if you know someone's having caviar? Also, how would you compare today's wealth inequality with that of 200 years ago, when peasants, being some 90% of the population, didn't own nearly anything at all?
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    > Does a burger taste any worse if you know someone's having caviar? Human beings have a fine-tuned sense of inequality and injustice; it's one of the things that makes us self-legislating agents, rather than beasts scrabbling for the top. The burger absolutely does taste worse if you know that it isn't a fair representation of the value of your labor. To make this more salient: your argument would apply to people living under repressive regimes as much as it does to content Westerners sitting at home. Or do you think that North Koreans in China have no right to object, given that their equivalent domestic forced labor would be even worse?
    - 3y ago

FpUser 3y ago

>"Even with all the problems in the West, with all that's broken at the moment in our end-stage capitalist societies, never forget that the alternative, in almost all instances, is pure terror." Our goal should be getting further and further away from "pure terror" year after year. Instead we have politicians fucking with our way of life, restricting more and more freedoms and telling us that the alternative is North Korea.

scotty79 3y ago

False dichotomy promoted by American oligarchs. North Korea isn't an alternative to technofeudalism we have now, let alone the only alternative.

chaostheory 3y ago

Late stage capitalism is still better than the late stage socialism in North Korea.

kurthr 3y ago
I agree, but to be fair... you can't call it socialism. NK has been a dictatorship for literally generations. Even SK has only been democratic for a relatively short time. Just because they put democratic or socialist or even communist in their name doesn't make them so.
- chaostheory 3y ago
  The main problem with socialism is the centralization of power which means dictatorships aren’t mutually exclusive from communist systems. moreover unlike most of the world, North Korea still does not have a market economy. It is still a socialist system. It’s similar to the former nation of Yugoslavia when it was ruled by Tito.
- xwolfi 3y ago
  But have we seen that many people calling themselves socialists not ending up with the same problem ? Socialism doesnt work because it doesnt consider greed as a positive force. Starting from there, every sign of greed is suppressed until remains only an oppressive bureaucracy in charge of hammering any sign of attempt of maybe earning something. Socialism is not evil, it's even benevolent: but it's flawed because it ignore 50% of human nature. Better let people deal with their greed in a monitored sandbox that averages out excesses. And that is never called socialism, since it derives too much from accepted socialist dogma. I live in Hong Kong, so I know how hard the balance is to strike. But socialism worked so little here that most people are 3rd generation immigrants who fled collectivisation, loss of property right and only desire to be left alone by the evangelists of a better world. It's hard to hear people who leave in free capitalist sandboxes lecture us about how socialism could maybe work. Try and weep, as we did.
  - kurthr 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

DinaCoder99 3y ago

> never forget that the alternative, in almost all instances Well, one shitty alternative alternative anyway