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I’m sure the point about labor unions is true in this case, but I did a quick search and it seems labor union participation is even higher in Japan. 17% in the

I’m sure the point about labor unions is true in this case, but I did a quick search and it seems labor union participation is even higher in Japan. 17% in the Japan and 10% in the USA. I think in many ways we do labor unions wrong in the US, and from my cursory knowledge it seems like the Taft-Hartley act has a lot to do with it. That concentrated union power in the leadership which created an opportunity for more corruption, and also weakened certain powers that would make labor struggles more useful. Of course in Japan, they would likely use Japanese workers due to strong nationalist sentiment so this particular issue wouldn’t occur. I’m only saying this because some will read your comment and take away “labor unions bad”. I suspect that the truth is we aren’t doing labor unions properly here, and also the desire to use Taiwanese workers suggests there is something lacking about the US education system. It is of course reasonable for US workers to want a chance, but we need to make sure they are worthy of that chance. You can leave it up to the market to let people find higher education, but that’s going to leave smaller numbers in the end due to how wealth is distributed in this country. If you want higher numbers of educated workers, more provisions for affordable education are required.

lxm 3y ago
To clarify, this wasn't even a spat over unionized labor at the factory, this was about who gets to build the factory. TSMC wanted to bring some highly specialized labor from Taiwan (who presumably have experience with building this type of facilities) and Arizona Building and Construction Trades Council insisting their local dudes would do the job just fine.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Labor unions in different countries are completely different. For example, China has almost 100% union participation but it isn’t very meaningful. In some countries, unions are merely fronts for organized crime, in Japan and Northern Europe they are more like active partners.
- TaylorAlexander 3y ago
  Sure. This reinforces the point that labor unions are not inherently a problem, but the way we do labor unions certainly can be. Most rhetoric I hear in the US is if the former type. I only know bits and pieces but it sounds like perhaps we could learn from how Germany does labor unions (and higher education and healthcare for that matter).
  - nebula8804 3y ago
    I don't know man, from what I have read the unions were instrumental to getting the former CEO of VW (Herbert Diess) removed. He was dragging the company kicking and screaming into a full EV strategy and I guess he got overpowered because next thing you know he was gone. Now VW has gone from become a promising EV innovator to a laggard in this race (given what we see in their car tear downs and the reliability of their software). Maybe they were going to end up in this situation but it really seemed like they had a shot because the man at the top was trying. Do we really want that kind of union? I don't know how we can reconcile the notion that to transition to an emissions free future, we must convert cars to EVs but at the same time, EVs will guarantee a result in job losses.
  - ETH_start 3y ago
    The empirical evidence consistently shows labor unions reducing productivity. The real problem is that a significant fraction of the population benefits from the economic rent extraction that unions engage in, so they have a strong motivation to argue that have some redeeming quality.
    - TaylorAlexander 3y ago
      Let’s say it were true that labor unions reduced productivity, but that they also increased quality of life for workers. I often think we need to stop focusing so much on productivity to the detriment of life and human well being. Or stated more directly, it is non obvious to me that reduced productivity is inherently bad.
      - ETH_start 3y ago
coredog64 3y ago
One of the major problems with US unions is a hangover from racism. Can’t remember the USSC decision off the top of my head, but the TL;DR is that there was a railroad union that wasn’t defending African-American members. The USSC essentially said that unions have to defend everyone. The downside to this is that it created an adversarial relationship between unions and management. If Joe Bag O’Donuts is a chucklehead, the US union still has to defend him. This leads to rubber rooms and job banks. In a German union, everyone can agree that Joe needs to go and that’s it.
- pfannkuchen 3y ago
  Source? This sounds too insane to be true!
  - replygirl 3y ago
    georgia rail strike of 1909 if you think that's insane, i'd recommend reading "who built america?" vol 1 and "artisans into workers"
- deprecative 3y ago
  Just an FYI, the acronym for the United States Supreme Court is SCOTUS. Supreme Court of the United States. POTUS is the president, as well.
silent_cal 3y ago
You make a good point, but in the US I do think labor unions have become basically bad. They function more like organized crime than legal representation.
- TaylorAlexander 3y ago
  To the extent that this is true, I think the legal structures we have forced them in to, in particular changes due to the Taft-Hartley act, have led to this. For example it is illegal to strike without leadership approval, so the act forced more power in to the hands of leadership, thus making it more like organized crime. And this is the point. Unions are not inherently bad, but the way we do them is.

lxm 3y ago

To clarify, this wasn't even a spat over unionized labor at the factory, this was about who gets to build the factory. TSMC wanted to bring some highly specialized labor from Taiwan (who presumably have experience with building this type of facilities) and Arizona Building and Construction Trades Council insisting their local dudes would do the job just fine.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

Labor unions in different countries are completely different. For example, China has almost 100% union participation but it isn’t very meaningful. In some countries, unions are merely fronts for organized crime, in Japan and Northern Europe they are more like active partners.

TaylorAlexander 3y ago
Sure. This reinforces the point that labor unions are not inherently a problem, but the way we do labor unions certainly can be. Most rhetoric I hear in the US is if the former type. I only know bits and pieces but it sounds like perhaps we could learn from how Germany does labor unions (and higher education and healthcare for that matter).
- nebula8804 3y ago
  I don't know man, from what I have read the unions were instrumental to getting the former CEO of VW (Herbert Diess) removed. He was dragging the company kicking and screaming into a full EV strategy and I guess he got overpowered because next thing you know he was gone. Now VW has gone from become a promising EV innovator to a laggard in this race (given what we see in their car tear downs and the reliability of their software). Maybe they were going to end up in this situation but it really seemed like they had a shot because the man at the top was trying. Do we really want that kind of union? I don't know how we can reconcile the notion that to transition to an emissions free future, we must convert cars to EVs but at the same time, EVs will guarantee a result in job losses.
- ETH_start 3y ago
  The empirical evidence consistently shows labor unions reducing productivity. The real problem is that a significant fraction of the population benefits from the economic rent extraction that unions engage in, so they have a strong motivation to argue that have some redeeming quality.
  - TaylorAlexander 3y ago
    Let’s say it were true that labor unions reduced productivity, but that they also increased quality of life for workers. I often think we need to stop focusing so much on productivity to the detriment of life and human well being. Or stated more directly, it is non obvious to me that reduced productivity is inherently bad.
    - ETH_start 3y ago

coredog64 3y ago

One of the major problems with US unions is a hangover from racism. Can’t remember the USSC decision off the top of my head, but the TL;DR is that there was a railroad union that wasn’t defending African-American members. The USSC essentially said that unions have to defend everyone. The downside to this is that it created an adversarial relationship between unions and management. If Joe Bag O’Donuts is a chucklehead, the US union still has to defend him. This leads to rubber rooms and job banks. In a German union, everyone can agree that Joe needs to go and that’s it.

pfannkuchen 3y ago
Source? This sounds too insane to be true!
- replygirl 3y ago
  georgia rail strike of 1909 if you think that's insane, i'd recommend reading "who built america?" vol 1 and "artisans into workers"
deprecative 3y ago
Just an FYI, the acronym for the United States Supreme Court is SCOTUS. Supreme Court of the United States. POTUS is the president, as well.

silent_cal 3y ago

You make a good point, but in the US I do think labor unions have become basically bad. They function more like organized crime than legal representation.

TaylorAlexander 3y ago
To the extent that this is true, I think the legal structures we have forced them in to, in particular changes due to the Taft-Hartley act, have led to this. For example it is illegal to strike without leadership approval, so the act forced more power in to the hands of leadership, thus making it more like organized crime. And this is the point. Unions are not inherently bad, but the way we do them is.