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>What we have today is an overtly fascist MAGA Republican party that calls openly for dictatorship. This is UFO level conspiratorial thinking, but it's however

>What we have today is an overtly fascist MAGA Republican party that calls openly for dictatorship. This is UFO level conspiratorial thinking, but it's however encouraged by the established press. What exactly happened in 4 years of Trump? Basically more of the same. The idea that it represents some kind of fascist danger or whatever is oversold for partisan gains by the other party.

halfmatthalfcat 3y ago
You left out the part where the President tried to persuade the Vice President not to ratify the election based on manufactured false pretense of election fraud. Or that same President trying to persuade another State’s elected officials to “find votes” so he could win.
- kelipso 3y ago
  Sorry but complaining about things like this and calling it fascism or end of the world or whatever looks like a joke or someone doing hysterics and not remotely anything to be taken seriously.
  - TOMDM 3y ago
    They didn't call it an end to the world; they claimed that attempts to subvert democracy are fascistic. Where's the hyperbole?
    - skissane 3y ago
      > they claimed that attempts to subvert democracy are fascistic > Where's the hyperbole? Fascism was highly ideological – Mussolini wrote a whole book explaining his ideology – The Doctrine of Fascism - partially ghostwritten by the Italian philosopher Giovanni Gentile. It contained specific doctrines, such as the primacy of the State. While Nazism is often equated with fascism, it had a different ideological flavour, with a much heavier emphasis on race. Still, while the ideology was different, the strong emphasis on ideology remained – you can read all about it in Mein Kampf (I tried to read it once, it was so boring I fell asleep), in Hitler's speeches, in the works of his various acolytes. Trump's ideology isn't fascism. Trump doesn't have an ideology. All he really believes in is his own personal power. Ideas aren't really that important to him. So, I'm not saying that various things he did weren't bad, but they weren't fascist. Calling them fascist is definitely inaccurate, and maybe even hyperbolic.
      - nemo 3y ago
        Instead of making up your own strict, carefully selected, and historically inaccurate definition (no historic fascists ever cared about ideology as anything other than a pretext for their authoritarianism.) I'd recommend reading up on this, just making things up as you go along isn't a great way to approach this particular topic. There's plenty you could read, though I'd recommend starting with Eco's Ur-Fascism as a bridge to start learning about the topic. There's more current work that's worth reading, but since you aren't familiar with any of it I'd recommend starting with the light material, it's more approachable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur-Fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur-Fascism
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        coldtea 3y ago
        This list not much better than citing some 60s revolutionary group about how "society/schools/corporations/media/religion/academia are all fascist, man".
        skissane 3y ago
        > no historic fascists ever cared about ideology as anything other than a pretext for their authoritarianism On the contrary, Hitler's ideology of racist nationalism and antisemitism wasn't just some "pretext for authoritarianism"–he had convinced himself it was the truth. > I'd recommend reading up on this, just making things up as you go along isn't a great way to approach this particular topic I don't think this response is really in the spirit of the HN guidelines, [0] especially the part which says "Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes." > Eco's Ur-Fascism That's just one scholar's opinions among many. There is a lack of scholarly consensus on how to define "fascism"–as the noted historian of Nazi Germany Ian Kershaw once wrote, "trying to define 'fascism' is like trying to nail jelly to the wall". [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        nemo 3y ago
    - coldtea 3y ago
      Well, calling complaints about the legitimacy of election results "attempts to subvert democracy" is hyperbole. Aren't those the very opposite - attempts to uphold democracy? (even if misguided and there was no fraud)? In general, anybody that believes that somebody like Trump would have subverted democracy and established some authoritarian rule, is beyond hyperbole.
      - sokoloff 3y ago
        Attempting to subvert democracy would not look like asking legitimate questions about the election results. It would probably look something more like calling a Secretary of State to get them to change the election results. Or to ask the Vice President to count the electoral votes incorrectly. You know. Things that we know actually happened. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%E2%80%93Raffensperger_phone_call https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%E2%80%93Raffensperger_ph... 2 - https://www.factcheck.org/2023/08/what-trump-asked-of-pence/ https://www.factcheck.org/2023/08/what-trump-asked-of-pence/
      - TOMDM 3y ago
        If Trump had simply called for investigations into the legitimacy of the election or requested recounts then yes I'd agree. Putting together a slate of false electors, asking the VP to certify them, or calling states and asking them to find more votes however is not that.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - nemo 3y ago
    >Sorry but complaining about things like this and calling it fascism or end of the world or whatever looks like a joke Sorry but denying the reality of the current GOP's open efforts to subvert democracy while they speak openly of sedition and overthrowing democracy really makes you look like a fascist apologist. At CPAC ending democracy was the buzz among attendant, Posobiec got applause for saying it was time to end democracy in America.
  - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
    > Sorry but complaining about things like this and calling it fascism Complaining about the president trying to prevent the peaceful transfer of power by getting his vice president to block the results "looks like a joke" to you??? I really hope that you can only say that because his plan failed.
petre 3y ago
You had the Capitol attack on the Trump administration's watch, so I wouldn't say it's oversold. Meanwhile the others are too busy showing off PC and LGBT progressivism, to the point that it just creates too much needless tension in American society and the conservative reactions to this are discussions about criminalizing abortion.
api 3y ago
If Obama had lost in 2012 and had pulled exactly what Trump pulled on January 6th using anarchists, BLM, and the Nation of Islam as soldiers, would you have called that a coup attempt? Now imagine that months earlier a member of one of those groups had asked him what to do and he’d said “stand back, and stand by.”
- bigbillheck 3y ago
  I can't imagine anarchists thinking Obama would have been any better than Romney, and as for the Nation of Islam, in 2011 Farrakhan called Obama an assassin and a murder.
  - dctoedt 3y ago
    Your challenge to the premises isn't helpful. Sure, the parent comment poses a hypothetical question (and perhaps counterfactual), but it's clearly designed to probe the GP comment's reasoning.
TOMDM 3y ago
The slate of false electors is UFO level conspiracy thinking?
ajross 3y ago
> What exactly happened in 4 years of Trump? Basically more of the same. It was histrorically bad corruption and abuse of power, honestly. I mean, lots and lots of people curated lists. Here's a quick one from the weeks before the 2020 election: https://www.citizensforethics.org/news/analysis/president-trumps-worst-offenses/ https://www.citizensforethics.org/news/analysis/president-tr... Now I know you'll want to argue specifics for every element and that the source is partisan or suspect, etc... and I'm not going to get involved. But suffice it to say that any one of those items would have been enough to sink any other administration. It's the authoritarian tilt of the modern GOP that led it to green light all this, and that is only going to get worse with a more ambitious candidate.
- noitpmeder 3y ago
  Never seen this list before... But holy cow, it's actually insane when you compile it all like that. This election cycle is going to be madness.
- bigstrat2003 3y ago
  No, it was the same shit in another term. The only reason people noticed or cared was because the press hated Trump with the passion of a thousand fiery suns, so they actually did their jobs and held his feet to the fire (unlike with Obama).
  - ajross 3y ago
    As stated, I'm not going to argue specifics and really don't think anyone should try. But I will say that if you want to argue against a list like this, posting a similar one from a similarly non-partisan source about your target administration might be a better technique than invoking conspiracies about the media (which CREW is not, btw).

halfmatthalfcat 3y ago

You left out the part where the President tried to persuade the Vice President not to ratify the election based on manufactured false pretense of election fraud. Or that same President trying to persuade another State’s elected officials to “find votes” so he could win.

kelipso 3y ago
Sorry but complaining about things like this and calling it fascism or end of the world or whatever looks like a joke or someone doing hysterics and not remotely anything to be taken seriously.
- TOMDM 3y ago
  They didn't call it an end to the world; they claimed that attempts to subvert democracy are fascistic. Where's the hyperbole?
  - skissane 3y ago
    > they claimed that attempts to subvert democracy are fascistic > Where's the hyperbole? Fascism was highly ideological – Mussolini wrote a whole book explaining his ideology – The Doctrine of Fascism - partially ghostwritten by the Italian philosopher Giovanni Gentile. It contained specific doctrines, such as the primacy of the State. While Nazism is often equated with fascism, it had a different ideological flavour, with a much heavier emphasis on race. Still, while the ideology was different, the strong emphasis on ideology remained – you can read all about it in Mein Kampf (I tried to read it once, it was so boring I fell asleep), in Hitler's speeches, in the works of his various acolytes. Trump's ideology isn't fascism. Trump doesn't have an ideology. All he really believes in is his own personal power. Ideas aren't really that important to him. So, I'm not saying that various things he did weren't bad, but they weren't fascist. Calling them fascist is definitely inaccurate, and maybe even hyperbolic.
    - nemo 3y ago
      Instead of making up your own strict, carefully selected, and historically inaccurate definition (no historic fascists ever cared about ideology as anything other than a pretext for their authoritarianism.) I'd recommend reading up on this, just making things up as you go along isn't a great way to approach this particular topic. There's plenty you could read, though I'd recommend starting with Eco's Ur-Fascism as a bridge to start learning about the topic. There's more current work that's worth reading, but since you aren't familiar with any of it I'd recommend starting with the light material, it's more approachable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur-Fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur-Fascism
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - coldtea 3y ago
        This list not much better than citing some 60s revolutionary group about how "society/schools/corporations/media/religion/academia are all fascist, man".
      - skissane 3y ago
        > no historic fascists ever cared about ideology as anything other than a pretext for their authoritarianism On the contrary, Hitler's ideology of racist nationalism and antisemitism wasn't just some "pretext for authoritarianism"–he had convinced himself it was the truth. > I'd recommend reading up on this, just making things up as you go along isn't a great way to approach this particular topic I don't think this response is really in the spirit of the HN guidelines, [0] especially the part which says "Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes." > Eco's Ur-Fascism That's just one scholar's opinions among many. There is a lack of scholarly consensus on how to define "fascism"–as the noted historian of Nazi Germany Ian Kershaw once wrote, "trying to define 'fascism' is like trying to nail jelly to the wall". [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        nemo 3y ago
  - coldtea 3y ago
    Well, calling complaints about the legitimacy of election results "attempts to subvert democracy" is hyperbole. Aren't those the very opposite - attempts to uphold democracy? (even if misguided and there was no fraud)? In general, anybody that believes that somebody like Trump would have subverted democracy and established some authoritarian rule, is beyond hyperbole.
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      Attempting to subvert democracy would not look like asking legitimate questions about the election results. It would probably look something more like calling a Secretary of State to get them to change the election results. Or to ask the Vice President to count the electoral votes incorrectly. You know. Things that we know actually happened. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%E2%80%93Raffensperger_phone_call https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%E2%80%93Raffensperger_ph... 2 - https://www.factcheck.org/2023/08/what-trump-asked-of-pence/ https://www.factcheck.org/2023/08/what-trump-asked-of-pence/
    - TOMDM 3y ago
      If Trump had simply called for investigations into the legitimacy of the election or requested recounts then yes I'd agree. Putting together a slate of false electors, asking the VP to certify them, or calling states and asking them to find more votes however is not that.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- nemo 3y ago
  >Sorry but complaining about things like this and calling it fascism or end of the world or whatever looks like a joke Sorry but denying the reality of the current GOP's open efforts to subvert democracy while they speak openly of sedition and overthrowing democracy really makes you look like a fascist apologist. At CPAC ending democracy was the buzz among attendant, Posobiec got applause for saying it was time to end democracy in America.
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
  > Sorry but complaining about things like this and calling it fascism Complaining about the president trying to prevent the peaceful transfer of power by getting his vice president to block the results "looks like a joke" to you??? I really hope that you can only say that because his plan failed.

petre 3y ago

You had the Capitol attack on the Trump administration's watch, so I wouldn't say it's oversold. Meanwhile the others are too busy showing off PC and LGBT progressivism, to the point that it just creates too much needless tension in American society and the conservative reactions to this are discussions about criminalizing abortion.

api 3y ago

If Obama had lost in 2012 and had pulled exactly what Trump pulled on January 6th using anarchists, BLM, and the Nation of Islam as soldiers, would you have called that a coup attempt? Now imagine that months earlier a member of one of those groups had asked him what to do and he’d said “stand back, and stand by.”

bigbillheck 3y ago
I can't imagine anarchists thinking Obama would have been any better than Romney, and as for the Nation of Islam, in 2011 Farrakhan called Obama an assassin and a murder.
- dctoedt 3y ago
  Your challenge to the premises isn't helpful. Sure, the parent comment poses a hypothetical question (and perhaps counterfactual), but it's clearly designed to probe the GP comment's reasoning.

TOMDM 3y ago

The slate of false electors is UFO level conspiracy thinking?

ajross 3y ago

> What exactly happened in 4 years of Trump? Basically more of the same. It was histrorically bad corruption and abuse of power, honestly. I mean, lots and lots of people curated lists. Here's a quick one from the weeks before the 2020 election: https://www.citizensforethics.org/news/analysis/president-trumps-worst-offenses/ https://www.citizensforethics.org/news/analysis/president-tr... Now I know you'll want to argue specifics for every element and that the source is partisan or suspect, etc... and I'm not going to get involved. But suffice it to say that any one of those items would have been enough to sink any other administration. It's the authoritarian tilt of the modern GOP that led it to green light all this, and that is only going to get worse with a more ambitious candidate.

noitpmeder 3y ago
Never seen this list before... But holy cow, it's actually insane when you compile it all like that. This election cycle is going to be madness.
bigstrat2003 3y ago
No, it was the same shit in another term. The only reason people noticed or cared was because the press hated Trump with the passion of a thousand fiery suns, so they actually did their jobs and held his feet to the fire (unlike with Obama).
- ajross 3y ago
  As stated, I'm not going to argue specifics and really don't think anyone should try. But I will say that if you want to argue against a list like this, posting a similar one from a similarly non-partisan source about your target administration might be a better technique than invoking conspiracies about the media (which CREW is not, btw).