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Future headline... > In a violent act against the Haitian people, the US halts export of low cost rice, leading to mass starvation and food insecurity. Damned

Future headline... > In a violent act against the Haitian people, the US halts export of low cost rice, leading to mass starvation and food insecurity. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

MSFT_Edging 3y ago
I mean, its not far off. The country has been in immense debt over freeing themselves from slavery. Economic violence is real, you undermine local markets then make them dependent on your exports, hurting the local economy and resiliency.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Could a Haiti ag industry (people, land, systems) that isn’t interfered with support the domestic nutritional needs of the current population?
  - lo_zamoyski 3y ago
    '"There's a long history in Haiti of groups like USAID flooding the market with rice and other imports," said Victor. "This is not what we need. We need real help and that means completely changing the agricultural system."' 'Paul O'Brien of Oxfam America says the lessons of the harm of flooding a country like Haiti with subsidized rice should have been learned a long time ago. '"The days are gone when we can throw up our hands in terms of unintended consequences; we know now what these injections can do to markets," he said. "The question we want asked is what is being done to guarantee long-term food security for Haitians."' '[...] there is plenty of malnutrition. 'Some 2.4 million Haitians — out of a population of nearly 10 million — cannot afford the minimum daily calories recommended by the World Health Organization.' 'But donors often sink more money into emergency aid than such long-term projects.' 'Before the 1970s, Haitians only ate rice once or twice a week, getting starch from other local staples like sorghum and manioc, Woolley said. 'Today, rice is a staple but often U.S.-subsidized rice costs less than locally grown crops. On Friday, a 55-pound bag of US rice cost about $36, compared with $60 for the same size sack of Haitian rice.' 'In the 1970s, fearing indigenous pigs could spread swine fever, the United States — in conjunction with USAID — moved to replace all of Haiti's hearty Creole pigs with pigs from Iowa. The end result was the fragile U.S. pigs often became sick, preferred expensive feed and had fewer litters.' '[Haitians need] cheap credit, cheaper fertilizer and more government aid, he said.' [0] https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna35608836 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna35608836
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- oatmeal1 3y ago
  Using the word "violence" the way you are is clearly newspeak; it's inflammatory and unhelpful.
  - JaimeThompson 3y ago
    I believe the 2nd definition fits this use case. From dict.org 2. Injury done to that which is entitled to respect, reverence, or observance; profanation; infringement; unjust force; outrage; assault. [1913 Webster]
  - analognoise 3y ago
    Um it’s violence and privilege to use famous examples of “Western” literature to make your point and it doesn’t consider the diverse heritage of learners. Could you please cease doing violence and not think those thoughts? (/s This is sarcasm - the second line obviously references Doublethink. The example is meant to point out how ridiculous it is that thought is being shut down by accusing people with an expanded/changed definition of violence)
- anonporridge 3y ago
  I don't disagree. But the broader point is that whenever you have a strong and weak entity interacting, you can always find a way to frame anything the stronger entity does as "violence". Not sharing your wealth and power? Violence by indirectly causing suffering with your hoarding. Sharing your wealth and power? Violence by harming the weaker entity's ability to take care of themselves and be independent. At the end of the day, some armchair critic is always going to accuse the stronger/wealthier party of violence, so accusations of such lose their meaning and people increasingly ignore the boy who cried wolf.
  - tomrod 3y ago
    > whenever you have a strong and weak entity interacting, you can always find a way to frame anything the stronger entity does as "violence". Correct. While it's a bit crude term than the historical "inquitable", it accurately describes trade surpluses being lost to the weaker party compared to a more equal exchange. This is why BATNA is an important principle.
- 77pt77 3y ago
  What happens if they just don't pay the debt? Is Fr*nce going to invade?
  - diab0lic 3y ago
    Probably not but they’ll have a harder time finding capital the next time they need to borrow. It is generally unwise to default on debt if you think you may need to borrow again.
    - 77pt77 3y ago
      Their problems have crossed that line a long time ago.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  That dent was sold by France to Citibank in 1922 and paid off in 1947. I don’t understand why you are talking about this in the present tense.
colechristensen 3y ago
That's not it. You just can't help a freezing person by setting fire to them. Giving people money for food raises the prices of food. Giving people free food ruins the people selling food. A starving population is an economics problem, rarely is it a commodity shortage. If you want to distort an economy you have to do it intentionally and with great care with an eye for helping it grow. For example, look at what they already import from your country, buy it from your own producers and then sell it at a deep discount, but watch out for who else sells it and if you'll distort any other exporters markets. Look at their needs for capital equipment, especially where efficiency is involved and sell it to them cheaply, again paying attention to not trample existing markets. Many more examples but in essence pay attention to the consequences of your actions, don't just focus on one and ignore the rest.
viraptor 3y ago
This is not wrong in any way. If you undermine someone's ability to help themselves and then withdraw your help, that's two bad actions. There are other ways to go about helping.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >There are other ways to go about helping. The best ways to help countries and communities out of poverty is through quality education and eradicating the endemic corruption. Throwing aid and free money at that corrupt and broken system, won't fix anything. It just perpetuates a cycle of systemic addiction where the people/society depend on your aid to function and are therefore under your control.
  - SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
    "Quality education" has to come together, unfortunately (contrary to conservative thinking) with free money and food too, as hungry people do not learn.
  - MOARDONGZPLZ 3y ago
    This train of thought has very “just build more housing to solve homelessness” character. While it’s a true statement, there are people in need in the interim that would eventually be helped by more housing, but will be irrevocably harmed without short and mid term interventions. In your case, yeah, eradicating corruption might solve the issue, but that’s something that has eluded the entire human race since time immemorial. So in the meantime while we work to solve the human equivalent of an NP Hard problem, let’s help people out.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- gruez 3y ago
  >This is not wrong in any way ...other than calling it "violence". If there's no use of force or threat thereof, it shouldn't be called "violence".
pastacacioepepe 3y ago
[flagged]
- rowanG077 3y ago
  You? The poster most certainly did not invade Haiti.
  - pastacacioepepe 3y ago
    You know what I mean. The USA, which the poster is defending. It doesn't really matter what his nationality is.
    - cm2012 3y ago
      The Dominican Republic is on the same damn island, also had a colonial history, had the same GDP per capita as Haiti until 1970, but now has 10x the GDP per capita as Haiti.
      - sgjohnson 3y ago
        The Dominicans had it even worse, as they also had to fight for their independence from... Haiti. But yeah, sure, let’s blame everything on the former colonial powers.
      - pastacacioepepe 3y ago
        The USA are still meddling in Haiti[0], so don't discount their role into Haiti's current situation. > The Dominican Republic is on the same damn island, also had a colonial history Not just any colonial history: the USA invaded the Dominican Republic as well. Crazy how they can't refrain themselves from doing it over and over. Now, comparing Haiti and Dominican Republic solely on the basis that both are on the same island and had a colonial history is too much of a simplification to mean anything, and to be fair verges on racist conclusions. Almost like you're implying that Haitians are inherently worse than Dominicans. - 0: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2021/10/05/1042518732/-the-greatest-heist-in-history-how-haiti-was-forced-to-pay-reparations-for-freed https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2021/10/05/1042518732/-th...
marci 3y ago
Haiti used to have a thriving rice production and could feed itself. In the 90s, the then government made some bad decisions when dealing with the IMF and reduced import taxes to almost nothing. At which point, farmers where not able to compete anymore, and the dark spiral began.

Future headline... > In a violent act against the Haitian people, the US halts export of low cost rice, leading to mass starvation and food insecurity. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

MSFT_Edging 3y ago

I mean, its not far off. The country has been in immense debt over freeing themselves from slavery. Economic violence is real, you undermine local markets then make them dependent on your exports, hurting the local economy and resiliency.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Could a Haiti ag industry (people, land, systems) that isn’t interfered with support the domestic nutritional needs of the current population?
- lo_zamoyski 3y ago
  '"There's a long history in Haiti of groups like USAID flooding the market with rice and other imports," said Victor. "This is not what we need. We need real help and that means completely changing the agricultural system."' 'Paul O'Brien of Oxfam America says the lessons of the harm of flooding a country like Haiti with subsidized rice should have been learned a long time ago. '"The days are gone when we can throw up our hands in terms of unintended consequences; we know now what these injections can do to markets," he said. "The question we want asked is what is being done to guarantee long-term food security for Haitians."' '[...] there is plenty of malnutrition. 'Some 2.4 million Haitians — out of a population of nearly 10 million — cannot afford the minimum daily calories recommended by the World Health Organization.' 'But donors often sink more money into emergency aid than such long-term projects.' 'Before the 1970s, Haitians only ate rice once or twice a week, getting starch from other local staples like sorghum and manioc, Woolley said. 'Today, rice is a staple but often U.S.-subsidized rice costs less than locally grown crops. On Friday, a 55-pound bag of US rice cost about $36, compared with $60 for the same size sack of Haitian rice.' 'In the 1970s, fearing indigenous pigs could spread swine fever, the United States — in conjunction with USAID — moved to replace all of Haiti's hearty Creole pigs with pigs from Iowa. The end result was the fragile U.S. pigs often became sick, preferred expensive feed and had fewer litters.' '[Haitians need] cheap credit, cheaper fertilizer and more government aid, he said.' [0] https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna35608836 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna35608836
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
oatmeal1 3y ago
Using the word "violence" the way you are is clearly newspeak; it's inflammatory and unhelpful.
- JaimeThompson 3y ago
  I believe the 2nd definition fits this use case. From dict.org 2. Injury done to that which is entitled to respect, reverence, or observance; profanation; infringement; unjust force; outrage; assault. [1913 Webster]
- analognoise 3y ago
  Um it’s violence and privilege to use famous examples of “Western” literature to make your point and it doesn’t consider the diverse heritage of learners. Could you please cease doing violence and not think those thoughts? (/s This is sarcasm - the second line obviously references Doublethink. The example is meant to point out how ridiculous it is that thought is being shut down by accusing people with an expanded/changed definition of violence)
anonporridge 3y ago
I don't disagree. But the broader point is that whenever you have a strong and weak entity interacting, you can always find a way to frame anything the stronger entity does as "violence". Not sharing your wealth and power? Violence by indirectly causing suffering with your hoarding. Sharing your wealth and power? Violence by harming the weaker entity's ability to take care of themselves and be independent. At the end of the day, some armchair critic is always going to accuse the stronger/wealthier party of violence, so accusations of such lose their meaning and people increasingly ignore the boy who cried wolf.
- tomrod 3y ago
  > whenever you have a strong and weak entity interacting, you can always find a way to frame anything the stronger entity does as "violence". Correct. While it's a bit crude term than the historical "inquitable", it accurately describes trade surpluses being lost to the weaker party compared to a more equal exchange. This is why BATNA is an important principle.
77pt77 3y ago
What happens if they just don't pay the debt? Is Fr*nce going to invade?
- diab0lic 3y ago
  Probably not but they’ll have a harder time finding capital the next time they need to borrow. It is generally unwise to default on debt if you think you may need to borrow again.
  - 77pt77 3y ago
    Their problems have crossed that line a long time ago.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
That dent was sold by France to Citibank in 1922 and paid off in 1947. I don’t understand why you are talking about this in the present tense.

colechristensen 3y ago

That's not it. You just can't help a freezing person by setting fire to them. Giving people money for food raises the prices of food. Giving people free food ruins the people selling food. A starving population is an economics problem, rarely is it a commodity shortage. If you want to distort an economy you have to do it intentionally and with great care with an eye for helping it grow. For example, look at what they already import from your country, buy it from your own producers and then sell it at a deep discount, but watch out for who else sells it and if you'll distort any other exporters markets. Look at their needs for capital equipment, especially where efficiency is involved and sell it to them cheaply, again paying attention to not trample existing markets. Many more examples but in essence pay attention to the consequences of your actions, don't just focus on one and ignore the rest.

viraptor 3y ago

This is not wrong in any way. If you undermine someone's ability to help themselves and then withdraw your help, that's two bad actions. There are other ways to go about helping.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>There are other ways to go about helping. The best ways to help countries and communities out of poverty is through quality education and eradicating the endemic corruption. Throwing aid and free money at that corrupt and broken system, won't fix anything. It just perpetuates a cycle of systemic addiction where the people/society depend on your aid to function and are therefore under your control.
- SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
  "Quality education" has to come together, unfortunately (contrary to conservative thinking) with free money and food too, as hungry people do not learn.
- MOARDONGZPLZ 3y ago
  This train of thought has very “just build more housing to solve homelessness” character. While it’s a true statement, there are people in need in the interim that would eventually be helped by more housing, but will be irrevocably harmed without short and mid term interventions. In your case, yeah, eradicating corruption might solve the issue, but that’s something that has eluded the entire human race since time immemorial. So in the meantime while we work to solve the human equivalent of an NP Hard problem, let’s help people out.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
gruez 3y ago
>This is not wrong in any way ...other than calling it "violence". If there's no use of force or threat thereof, it shouldn't be called "violence".

pastacacioepepe 3y ago

[flagged]

rowanG077 3y ago
You? The poster most certainly did not invade Haiti.
- pastacacioepepe 3y ago
  You know what I mean. The USA, which the poster is defending. It doesn't really matter what his nationality is.
  - cm2012 3y ago
    The Dominican Republic is on the same damn island, also had a colonial history, had the same GDP per capita as Haiti until 1970, but now has 10x the GDP per capita as Haiti.
    - sgjohnson 3y ago
      The Dominicans had it even worse, as they also had to fight for their independence from... Haiti. But yeah, sure, let’s blame everything on the former colonial powers.
    - pastacacioepepe 3y ago
      The USA are still meddling in Haiti[0], so don't discount their role into Haiti's current situation. > The Dominican Republic is on the same damn island, also had a colonial history Not just any colonial history: the USA invaded the Dominican Republic as well. Crazy how they can't refrain themselves from doing it over and over. Now, comparing Haiti and Dominican Republic solely on the basis that both are on the same island and had a colonial history is too much of a simplification to mean anything, and to be fair verges on racist conclusions. Almost like you're implying that Haitians are inherently worse than Dominicans. - 0: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2021/10/05/1042518732/-the-greatest-heist-in-history-how-haiti-was-forced-to-pay-reparations-for-freed https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2021/10/05/1042518732/-th...

marci 3y ago

Haiti used to have a thriving rice production and could feed itself. In the 90s, the then government made some bad decisions when dealing with the IMF and reduced import taxes to almost nothing. At which point, farmers where not able to compete anymore, and the dark spiral began.