5 ms·

Alzheimer's has to be one of the worst. I do find euthanasia to be a slippery slope[0], but I'll make an exception for Alzheimer's. 0: picture an understaffed

Alzheimer's has to be one of the worst. I do find euthanasia to be a slippery slope[0], but I'll make an exception for Alzheimer's. 0: picture an understaffed and underfunded hospital, with a single nurse walking around calmingly asking anyone if they want it to end

anonzzzies 3y ago
Making an exception for X is the same slippery slope. And easy talk for people who haven't had a family member die in agony or something like that in a place where they don't allow control over your own life. My life, my terms; if I want out, it needs to be an option. Which is exactly the problem with Alzheimer; cancer is much easier; you are usually lucid but not very happy the last few weeks/months, so let's end it. Alzheimer's they cannot even ask you, as you cannot decide for yourself for probably a long time already.
- zmgsabst 3y ago
  I’ve had multiple family members die with Alzheimer’s; can I sign up when young and lucid to die early if I get diagnosed? The sheer horror of forgetting your children and grandchildren sickens me — and I have to say, those relatives were gone long before they were gone.
  - anonzzzies 3y ago
    > I’ve had multiple family members die with Alzheimer’s; can I sign up when young and lucid to die early if I get diagnosed? In the Netherlands (and I guess other countries), you have to arrange this very early (if you know your family has Alzheimers, like mine). Once you have symptoms or even are diagnosed, you cannot decide anymore. And you'll end up in a home, knowing nothing and no-one and often drugged up, until you die of natural causes (although the last part you don't notice anyway; your family does).
    - grodriguez100 3y ago
      Being diagnosed should not prevent you from making an advance directive as long as you are in full possession of your mental faculties. That’s how it works in Spain at least. In certain cases this may involve a medical evaluation.
      - anonzzzies 3y ago
        We had some issues in the family with this, but yes, it might be because the diagnoses was already (perceived to be) too late. I would recommend doing it young if it's a familiar/genetic issue. If not, of course you cannot do that, so you try what you can.
  - grodriguez100 3y ago
    In Spain this is possible. It is called “testamento vital” or “documento de voluntades anticipadas”, and the goal is just that: to declare, in a legally binding way, your wish to receive or not receive certain kinds of medical treatments in the future, in case you can no longer decide when the time comes. This includes euthanasia in cases where it is legally allowed. Alzheimer is one of such cases.
  - bloak 3y ago
    I don't have a lot of experience with Alzheimer's, but in the couple of cases I've observed, though not from very close, the patient didn't seem to be suffering or unhappy at the end. There was a brief intermediate period of paranoia, in which they obviously were unhappy, but then they settled down into a state of complete doolallitude in which they were an expensive burden for professional carers but seemed quite cheerful. That makes the euthanasia question a bit harder.
- VBprogrammer 3y ago
  We afford old people in their last days less compassion than a dog. I look forward to the day when we look back at this as a moral outrage. Our family have recently been in the situation where my partners 85 year old grandfather, who sometimes struggles to remember who we are, had to have his leg amputated due to some metalwork he had implanted in his knee 10 years ago having worn through his skin due to him losing muscle and being very thin from being bed bound. He has approximately zero chance of adapting to having his leg amputated and, in all honesty, most of the family hoped he would die on the operating table as he has no meaningful quality of life.
  - anonzzzies 3y ago
    > We afford old people in their last days less compassion than a dog. I look forward to the day when we look back at this as a moral outrage. Maybe religious groups/political parties/lobbies etc; if they are against abortion, they will definitely be against ending grandma (who doesn't know who you or your grandpa are, but let's not mention that); religious people see it as suicide and murder, so off to hell with 2+ people for every euthanasia.
    - vkou 3y ago
      Ironically, there's a large overlap between those people and people who support capital punishment.
      - nippoo 3y ago
        Is there? I'm genuinely curious where this stat comes from.
        vkou 3y ago
        The Venn diagram of states that criminalize abortion and states that carry out the death penalty is nearly a circle... As are the sets of politicians, and the platforms that evangelical organizations tend to endorse. Catholics are an exception, but they are a relatively politically inactive minority in the US. https://reproductiverights.org/maps/abortion-laws-by-state/ https://reproductiverights.org/maps/abortion-laws-by-state/ [1] https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/states-landing https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/states-landing [1] Florida's only yellow because it's still being fought in the courts.
- Aeolun 3y ago
  > My life, my terms; if I want out, it needs to be an option. It’s always an option, it’s just kind of weird that it’s illegal for trained medical professionals to help you do it certainly and painlessly.
  - wakawaka28 3y ago
    It's not that weird. Doctors and the state have perverse incentives. We also discourage suicide for good reasons.
    - cogman10 3y ago
      States with the death penalty are finding it hard to find doctors and suppliers to carry out the punishment. I don't, frankly, think there's a lot of perverse incentive. For the medical field, the incentive is for longevity. Nursing homes make money on occupancy, they aren't going to want to kill off their primary source of income. The state might care, but they have an uphill battle if they tried pulling off soylent green.
      - wakawaka28 3y ago
        Killing people to take their organs would be one perverse incentive. Reducing costs to the state would be another. Canada has been taking the lead with euthanasia. They propose it as a solution for such things as depression and poverty, or anything else that would make life unbearable for you (regardless of whether it's reasonable). See: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/another-case-of-a-sick-canadian-offered-death-instead-of-treatment-this-time-a-veteran https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/another-case-of-a-sick-... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/11/canada-cases-right-to-die-laws https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/11/canada-cases-r... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/christine-gauthier-paralympian-euthanasia-canada-b2238319.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/christine-... https://nypost.com/2023/02/24/canada-considers-expanding-euthanasia-program-to-terminally-ill-minors/ https://nypost.com/2023/02/24/canada-considers-expanding-eut... On the other hand, the medical establishment currently has incentives to keep people alive. That can certainly lead to perverse incentives too.
- ametrau 3y ago
  Just one problem with the is that it becomes in practice a go to option in healthcare for difficult cases as it introduces a moral hazard[1]. Like pure horror of maid abuse in Canada. [1] Kill this patient or let them be bad mark on the hospital’s / care fac’s report sheet?
Anotheroneagain 3y ago
[flagged]
- avery17 3y ago
  Go on then, go cure everyone by feeding them pennies.
  - Anotheroneagain 3y ago
    Tell me how to do it without getting accused of poisoning people.
Waterluvian 3y ago
Making an exception for X might just indicate an ignorance of Y and Z and others.
- syoc 3y ago
  Or it might indicate an ignorance of X and a better understanding of Y and Z.
passion__desire 3y ago
movie "The Father" [0] really drived home the point of how much memory is part of our identity. I highly recommend this movie. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TZb7YfK-JI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TZb7YfK-JI
BeetleB 3y ago
Actually a real case in a US state that has death with dignity laws. One requirement of the law is that you can make the decision only when in a very bad state (high pain, etc as certified by a doctor). And only the person can make the decision. Not a loved one. A woman diagnosed with Alzheimer's couldn't make use of this because it'll only get bad when she loses much of her mental faculty. But by that point she is not mentally fit to make that decision. She filed a lawsuit and eventually moved to Europe to get her death with dignity there.

anonzzzies 3y ago

Making an exception for X is the same slippery slope. And easy talk for people who haven't had a family member die in agony or something like that in a place where they don't allow control over your own life. My life, my terms; if I want out, it needs to be an option. Which is exactly the problem with Alzheimer; cancer is much easier; you are usually lucid but not very happy the last few weeks/months, so let's end it. Alzheimer's they cannot even ask you, as you cannot decide for yourself for probably a long time already.

zmgsabst 3y ago
I’ve had multiple family members die with Alzheimer’s; can I sign up when young and lucid to die early if I get diagnosed? The sheer horror of forgetting your children and grandchildren sickens me — and I have to say, those relatives were gone long before they were gone.
- anonzzzies 3y ago
  > I’ve had multiple family members die with Alzheimer’s; can I sign up when young and lucid to die early if I get diagnosed? In the Netherlands (and I guess other countries), you have to arrange this very early (if you know your family has Alzheimers, like mine). Once you have symptoms or even are diagnosed, you cannot decide anymore. And you'll end up in a home, knowing nothing and no-one and often drugged up, until you die of natural causes (although the last part you don't notice anyway; your family does).
  - grodriguez100 3y ago
    Being diagnosed should not prevent you from making an advance directive as long as you are in full possession of your mental faculties. That’s how it works in Spain at least. In certain cases this may involve a medical evaluation.
    - anonzzzies 3y ago
      We had some issues in the family with this, but yes, it might be because the diagnoses was already (perceived to be) too late. I would recommend doing it young if it's a familiar/genetic issue. If not, of course you cannot do that, so you try what you can.
- grodriguez100 3y ago
  In Spain this is possible. It is called “testamento vital” or “documento de voluntades anticipadas”, and the goal is just that: to declare, in a legally binding way, your wish to receive or not receive certain kinds of medical treatments in the future, in case you can no longer decide when the time comes. This includes euthanasia in cases where it is legally allowed. Alzheimer is one of such cases.
- bloak 3y ago
  I don't have a lot of experience with Alzheimer's, but in the couple of cases I've observed, though not from very close, the patient didn't seem to be suffering or unhappy at the end. There was a brief intermediate period of paranoia, in which they obviously were unhappy, but then they settled down into a state of complete doolallitude in which they were an expensive burden for professional carers but seemed quite cheerful. That makes the euthanasia question a bit harder.
VBprogrammer 3y ago
We afford old people in their last days less compassion than a dog. I look forward to the day when we look back at this as a moral outrage. Our family have recently been in the situation where my partners 85 year old grandfather, who sometimes struggles to remember who we are, had to have his leg amputated due to some metalwork he had implanted in his knee 10 years ago having worn through his skin due to him losing muscle and being very thin from being bed bound. He has approximately zero chance of adapting to having his leg amputated and, in all honesty, most of the family hoped he would die on the operating table as he has no meaningful quality of life.
- anonzzzies 3y ago
  > We afford old people in their last days less compassion than a dog. I look forward to the day when we look back at this as a moral outrage. Maybe religious groups/political parties/lobbies etc; if they are against abortion, they will definitely be against ending grandma (who doesn't know who you or your grandpa are, but let's not mention that); religious people see it as suicide and murder, so off to hell with 2+ people for every euthanasia.
  - vkou 3y ago
    Ironically, there's a large overlap between those people and people who support capital punishment.
    - nippoo 3y ago
      Is there? I'm genuinely curious where this stat comes from.
      - vkou 3y ago
        The Venn diagram of states that criminalize abortion and states that carry out the death penalty is nearly a circle... As are the sets of politicians, and the platforms that evangelical organizations tend to endorse. Catholics are an exception, but they are a relatively politically inactive minority in the US. https://reproductiverights.org/maps/abortion-laws-by-state/ https://reproductiverights.org/maps/abortion-laws-by-state/ [1] https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/states-landing https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/states-landing [1] Florida's only yellow because it's still being fought in the courts.
Aeolun 3y ago
> My life, my terms; if I want out, it needs to be an option. It’s always an option, it’s just kind of weird that it’s illegal for trained medical professionals to help you do it certainly and painlessly.
- wakawaka28 3y ago
  It's not that weird. Doctors and the state have perverse incentives. We also discourage suicide for good reasons.
  - cogman10 3y ago
    States with the death penalty are finding it hard to find doctors and suppliers to carry out the punishment. I don't, frankly, think there's a lot of perverse incentive. For the medical field, the incentive is for longevity. Nursing homes make money on occupancy, they aren't going to want to kill off their primary source of income. The state might care, but they have an uphill battle if they tried pulling off soylent green.
    - wakawaka28 3y ago
      Killing people to take their organs would be one perverse incentive. Reducing costs to the state would be another. Canada has been taking the lead with euthanasia. They propose it as a solution for such things as depression and poverty, or anything else that would make life unbearable for you (regardless of whether it's reasonable). See: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/another-case-of-a-sick-canadian-offered-death-instead-of-treatment-this-time-a-veteran https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/another-case-of-a-sick-... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/11/canada-cases-right-to-die-laws https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/11/canada-cases-r... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/christine-gauthier-paralympian-euthanasia-canada-b2238319.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/christine-... https://nypost.com/2023/02/24/canada-considers-expanding-euthanasia-program-to-terminally-ill-minors/ https://nypost.com/2023/02/24/canada-considers-expanding-eut... On the other hand, the medical establishment currently has incentives to keep people alive. That can certainly lead to perverse incentives too.
ametrau 3y ago
Just one problem with the is that it becomes in practice a go to option in healthcare for difficult cases as it introduces a moral hazard[1]. Like pure horror of maid abuse in Canada. [1] Kill this patient or let them be bad mark on the hospital’s / care fac’s report sheet?

Anotheroneagain 3y ago

[flagged]

avery17 3y ago
Go on then, go cure everyone by feeding them pennies.
- Anotheroneagain 3y ago
  Tell me how to do it without getting accused of poisoning people.

Waterluvian 3y ago

Making an exception for X might just indicate an ignorance of Y and Z and others.

syoc 3y ago
Or it might indicate an ignorance of X and a better understanding of Y and Z.

passion__desire 3y ago

movie "The Father" [0] really drived home the point of how much memory is part of our identity. I highly recommend this movie. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TZb7YfK-JI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TZb7YfK-JI

BeetleB 3y ago

Actually a real case in a US state that has death with dignity laws. One requirement of the law is that you can make the decision only when in a very bad state (high pain, etc as certified by a doctor). And only the person can make the decision. Not a loved one. A woman diagnosed with Alzheimer's couldn't make use of this because it'll only get bad when she loses much of her mental faculty. But by that point she is not mentally fit to make that decision. She filed a lawsuit and eventually moved to Europe to get her death with dignity there.