11 ms·

Losing two jobs in one year

238 points by softwaredoug 3y ago

mathattack 3y ago
It was a revelation the first time I learned how disposable I was. The flip side to “work isn’t your identity” is I find that I do my best work when I’m fully engaged and care deeply about my coworkers.
OldGuyInTheClub 3y ago
Tying health insurance to employment. Was, is, and will be nuts.
- crooked-v 3y ago
  Unfortunately, the US has a huge number of people who would rather have insurance-run for-profit death panels than government-run non-profit death panels.
  - bruce511 3y ago
    I'm not downvoting you, because I assume uour comment was in good faith. The phrase "death panels" though is unfortunate. Nobody has death panels, nobody wants death panels, no health system anywhere private or public has death panels. It's just a scary phrase used in a political context. Ultimately all health systems make choices at every level of care. Triage is a thing. Organ recipient lists are a thing. Hospital occupancy, and theatre usage are things. In a perfect world we'd all get perfect medical care the instant we needed it. There'd be scores of doctors sitting around doing nothing just waiting for my call. There'd be an endless supply of organs, replacement parts, hospital beds, theatres and surgeons. We don't live in that world. Hence our systems have imperfections. Not everyone gets an optimal outcome. There are no "death panels". There doesn't need to be. Limitations and resource constraints force decisions at all levels every day. Now personally I think a well managed public health system us the most equitable. Failing that private insurance has a role to play in combination either public health. Employer paid health insurance has grouping advantages, but also means you lose your income and health at the same time. Steps for affordable personal health insurance are good. There's some way to go yet, but its a step in the right direction. Having at least some part of the health system be available to the uninsured (ie non-profit) would also be beneficial. So yeah, the US system, as it is, is great for those who can pay, terrible for everyone else. It favours the few with good jobs, and secure tenure. If you're in that group, well done. Other countries with national health have their own resource constraints. Not all individual outcomes are optional. And being rich doesn't necessarily jump you to the front of the queue. There are good outcomes, and bad outcomes, but they don't align to wealth or status (in theory.) In the US its hard to change the status quo because the country is governed by the rich, paid for by the richer. The system currently favors the rich. QED.
    - crooked-v 3y ago
      > The phrase "death panels" though is unfortunate. The phrase "death panels" is intentionally sarcastic mockery of the kind of people who unironically repeat Republican lies, by way of pointing out how even if the lie was true, it would be less harmful than the current state of affairs. I would have thought that was pretty obvious, but I guess not.
    - DinaCoder99 3y ago
      > Nobody has death panels Arguably this is just a description of private insurance, ironically. A group of people decides who gets treatment and who doesn't—except the scarcity here is "profit", not a real resource.
      - anotheruser13 3y ago
        In 1945, President Truman proposed a national healthcare plan to Congress. In his plan, he outlined five main goals: Address the lack of trained healthcare professionals in all communities. Grow public health services. Increase funding to medical research and education. Lower the cost of individual medical care. Bring attention to the loss of income when severe illness takes hold. Source https://www.trumanlibrary.gov/education/presidential-inquiries/challenge-national-healthcare https://www.trumanlibrary.gov/education/presidential-inquiri...
  - eru 3y ago
    Well, they could also deregulate their insurance and healthcare markets a lot. Profit is only a small part of the overall costs. See https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/04/20/the-amish-health-care-system/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/04/20/the-amish-health-care-... for what's possible in the US right now: > Amish people spend only a fifth as much as you do on health care, and their health is fine. What can we learn from them?
    - greenie_beans 3y ago
      yes, this is a good example of an anti-capitalist solution to health care.
      - eru 3y ago
        From the article: > Patients sometimes went along with this, being indifferent between spending $4 of someone else’s money or $2000 of someone else’s money. Everything in the US health system is like this, and the Amish avoid all of it. They have a normal free market in medical care where people pay for a product with their own money (or their community’s money) and have incentives to check how much it costs before they buy it. I do want to over-emphasize this one, and honestly I am surprised Amish health care costs are only ten times cheaper than ours are. People voluntarily getting together to do stuff and not forcing anything on anyone is pretty compatible with capitalism (whether it's 'capitalist' by itself is a question of definition). The main thing I take from the article is: you can lower costs dramatically, if you can avoid some of the more onerous regulations. And as a second point: if you can build up a reputation for being honest and trustworthy, you can bring down transaction costs a lot. The point about Amish never suing doctors mixes both: they are capitalising on that point via reputation; but in principle you could also sign those rights away with a contract. But while we allow companies to sign these kinds of contracts with each other, regulations doesn't allow patients to sign those rights away.
        greenie_beans 3y ago
        i'm sorry but this is a very anti-capitalist solution — a collective, shared resource in a community that everybody has access to if they contribute to it, and the organization is structured in a way that all participants have the chance to participate in the decision making. you can rationalize that it's not however you wish but that won't change the fact that the amish community is very much at odds with capitalism, and the way they do healthcare is very anti-capitalist. > People voluntarily getting together to do stuff and not forcing anything on anyone is pretty compatible with capitalism (whether it's 'capitalist' by itself is a question of definition). this is how anarchism works, too. anarchism is an anti-capitalist political theory and one of the fundamental premise is free, voluntary association. people always see the words "free market" and conflate free market with capitalism when a free market can be a component of any economic structure. it's okay if you agree with anti-capitalist solutions, i swear that the capitalist gods won't smite you. i appreciate scott alexander's slimely writing skills to get capitalists to think that an anti-capitalist solution is a good idea.
- sfRattan 3y ago
  My recollection is that health care and other, similar benefits were incentives employers could offer to attract and retain talent during a period when FDR had wage and price controls in place. That is: healthcare was exempt from wage controls, so you could offer a healthcare plan or an improved plan in lieu of a raise. Then, employers noticed, "you mean offering them healthcare makes it harder for our employees to leave? And public perception of healthcare means it will probably always be a tax advantaged way to allocate our expenses?" And here we are, eight decades and change later. Note: I think public perception of healthcare as a moral good in principle is correct. It's just that there's a wicked mal-alignment of incentives which leverages that perception to cement a bad solution in place.
  - bdw5204 3y ago
    That's basically my understanding of how we got into that mess. There are still significant tax subsidies for employer provided health insurance and most people don't realize that the COBRA price is the actual cost of their "cheap" or "free" employer provided insurance for the same reason they think their "income tax refund" is actually "free money" from the IRS rather than their money that the government held onto without interest. The average person is not very smart and half of the population isn't even that smart so of course they fall for these intelligence insulting tricks invented by politicians.
    - whiterknight 3y ago
      Most people are otherwise able to navigate their life just fine, but they struggle with systems that are ridiculously complex and opaque. Industrial society reduces your direct agency and forces you to rely on more sophisticated forms of influence.
  - OldGuyInTheClub 3y ago
    "Note: I think public perception of healthcare as a moral good in principle is correct. It's just that there's a wicked mal-alignment of incentives which leverages that perception to cement a bad solution in place." That is everywhere now. Birth, education, courtship/marriage, employment, ... all the way to death - everything is analyzed, pessimized, and stripmined for every last penny. "Enshittification" is all over HN and with good reason.
aquarkortwo 3y ago
"Something else changed. Suddenly, the two layoffs stopped being of any consequence. They quite frankly didn’t matter anymore." Beautiful piece. I feel this very deeply these days. Loved ones are all that matter in life (including ones no longer in my life). The ideas here remind me a bit of the book "Man's Search for Meaning."
- soared 3y ago
  Excellent book, on my nightstand right now!
- thierrydamiba 3y ago
  How do you balance this mindset with the cold hard reality that one needs to make money? I’m currently unemployed and I am lucky to have a generous runway, but that runway will run out eventually. The idea that nothing matters outside of family, friends, etc is tempting but I have made sacrifices in relationships with others and myself to be a more employable candidate. For example I’m taking LLM classes on Sunday mornings which precludes me from interacting with loved ones. I can try to schedule things around that-but sometimes that isn’t possible. I’m also working on other things, my health, my fitness, my spiritually. Finding balance has been hard. I’m in a good spot now, but I do find myself wondering if my ratios of time invested are correct given the fact that I also agree that loved ones are all that matter in life.
  - jhaenchen 3y ago
    Sounds like you're doing the right thing: trying to find a moderate position
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    You do the work for the money, but you don't invest yourself in the work: you care about the people who love you back at home. In the end, the work (caveat edge cases) will be meaningless. You're converting time into fiat you need to pay for life. You can always make more money, time is non renewable. "Today is your last day." "Meh, whatevs, going home to my family." https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/05/life-weeks.html https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/05/life-weeks.html https://waitbutwhy.com/2013/08/putting-time-in-perspective.html https://waitbutwhy.com/2013/08/putting-time-in-perspective.h... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Top_Five_Regrets_of_the_Dying https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Top_Five_Regrets_of_the_Dy... (20+ years in tech, have been laid off twice, fired once, aware none of it really matters, we're all dead eventually, a blip in the cosmic timeline)
vunderba 3y ago
If you only take one thing from this article, let it be this line: My work is only part of my identity. I'd argue that unless you're literally curing cancer, it should be the least important part of your identity. I've never let work be more than the tiniest facet of my existence that provides the resources necessary to well... not die. I understand this isn't the easiest thing for most people - tribalism and pack identity is a powerful thing. It's why we have entires throngs of people who follow celebrities / twitch streamers / influencers / voice actors / etc. It's why things like the "reality distortion field" around Steve Jobs exists. And well, it's why when people suddenly find themselves let go from a job, it apparently affects them in a powerfully and I would argue irrationally emotional way. In a way, these things have sort of acted as a de-facto substitute for more traditional tribalism (patriotism, national pride, etc) for a lot of Gen Z / Millennials. Shrugs. Or maybe this is just a personal observation. Note: Just to be fair, I think her breakdown was FAR FAR more understandable than many people who are let go given that: Her job provided health insurance for her family She has kids who depended on her Needing surgery
- SR2Z 3y ago
  IMO it's OK for work to be a big part of your identity. People should strive to achieve things professionally; it's a very human thing to master a craft for a living. But, to be fair, work != your specific company. It's stupid to tie your identity to the people hiring you.
  - famahar 3y ago
    In University the ultimate goal of almost every Comp Sci student was to work at a FAANG (or whatever it's called). Nothing else mattered. Students walked around with Google and Amazon t-shirts and Stickers. So much of University your identity was tied to working for big tech. Cult like when I look back.
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      I walked around my university with whatever shirt was given to me for free, so long as it was comfortable enough. Not much has changed in that regard as an adult in tech.
andyg_blog 3y ago
Sometimes it takes an existential event in our lives to really drive home what actually matters. On your death bed you won't wish that you spent more time delivering value to a company (even a great one) than spending time nurturing relationships with loved ones. On another note, your value as a human is not the same as the economic value you produce, and it's too easy to conflate the two
- Aeolun 3y ago
  > On your death bed you won't wish that you spent more time delivering value to a company (even a great one) than spending time nurturing relationships with loved ones. To some extend. But I spend a lot of time with my loved ones. I would regret losing that the most, but I can totally imagine myself also feeling sad about that feature or project I never got to finish.
- twojobsoneboss 3y ago
  Unfortunately you have to project substantial economic value to live a life of dignity (esp with a family) and so there’s no getting away from it with the current state of affairs You can’t just “live a nourishing life”, you have to do both
  - bamboozled 3y ago
    I can tell you don’t make a bunch of money and play videos games in your spare time. I have a family and IMO you sir are correct.
  - swat535 3y ago
    What a ridiculous statement, are you saying that lower income families don't live a life of dignity because they can't project "substantial economic" value? If your argument is about providing enough to have a roof over your head, then that doesn't equate to "substantial economic value". I find such obsession with wealth very unhealthy.
    - silverquiet 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
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ahstilde 3y ago
I worked with Irina (at Parse.ly!). She's an incredible engineer. Any back end team would be lucky to have her.
- softwaredoug 3y ago
  I know her by reputation as being a great engineer from Elastic and Parsely. I hope she lands on her feet.
deleted 3y ago
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tock 3y ago
It's really hard to maintain this mindset. I remember getting a health scare and everything related to work just seemed so insignificant. After a few days of receiving the good news regarding my health I was once again mentally wrestling with the random stupid stuff happening at work :/
- pants2 3y ago
  I think that's just the Hedonic treadmill in action. Everything is relative. That's why you see retirees in the HOA getting just as worked up about seasonal decorating rules as diplomats fighting for the future of their country.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    “The fights are so vicious, because the stakes are so low.” (HOA case)
bogota 3y ago
This is something i think has been slowly changing in the US. At least among the people i know. Work is now just work. Five years ago it had to be your passion it is what you wanted or at least i wanted to be defined by. After seeing how little any company cares about people work is what i try to spend the least amount of time doing. At 5 or ideally 4 i clock out and only respond if I am paged. Additionally i have checked out of the tech scene and just spend work time on any needed continuing education. Am I a good developer anymore? Who cares. Im good enough to pass whatever the stupid circuit of interviews is and honestly that is all that matters anymore.
- nlitened 3y ago
  > This is something i think has been slowly changing in the US. At least among the people i know. I think your cohort is just aging.
  - mooreds 3y ago
    It's hard to know, right? I think that COVID knocked the crap out of a lot of social norms, one of those being "live to work". But it could also be aging, as nothing helps you understand life is short like seeing obituaries of people only a few years older than you (or even younger than you).
    - roenxi 3y ago
      I'd guess the sequence is people start off young and naive, live through a downturn and then discover that the contract lays out precisely what their employer thinks of them. Doing the job then going home is not a new philosophy. The people living to work are just gullible.
      - nickd2001 3y ago
        As you work in tech for a number of years you discover that (a) employers don't become permanently more loyal or generous to you if you "work your ass off" and (b) working long hours doesn't actually make you more productive overall anyway. I suspect one reason for ageism in the industry is that management are too inexperienced themselves to have discovered either of these.
iamflimflam1 3y ago
Whenever I read articles like this, I’m so grateful that in the U.K. healthcare is not tied to your job. The NHS may struggle and have its issues. But I have never had to experience the stress of the thought of losing access to care.
- mooreds 3y ago
  I live in the USA and always wonder what awesome companies or organizations are we missing out on because people are tied to their employer due to healthcare. I know at least one couple close to retirement that is waiting until one of them can get onto cobra for the months before they can get onto Medicare. (They just budgeted for cobra in their planning.) I like how the Aussies do it (or at least how they did it last I looked): basic public healthcare plan provided by the government, then supplemental plans offered by the employer as a benefit.
  - hestefisk 3y ago
    Aussie here. Very few employers here offer health plans. Medicare is more or less like NHS in the UK. If you earn more than a certain amount, you have to pay for your own private health insurance. It is significantly cheaper than in the US. Source: myself
    - rad_gruchalski 3y ago
      > If you earn more than a certain amount, you have to pay for your own private health insurance Do you fall back into Medicare if you start earning less afterwards?
      - paulstovell 3y ago
        You don’t actually have to pay for your own, but you are taxed an extra 0.5% if you don’t and earn above a certain amount. So in practice rather than pay the additional tax, people get private healthcare. If you then start earning below the threshold you can cancel the private healthcare and go back to the public system.
Simon_ORourke 3y ago
That's rough, and as my Grandma used to say "disasters always come in threes". I've been through too many rounds of layoffs, headcount reductions, down-sizing, strategic re-alignments or whatever you care to call them, and each of them sucked. The one thing to take away from it, is that these are just random chance events by and large and not a reflection on the performance of good engineers. Getting re-hired itself can be another random event - and again, not making it through interviews may be more a reflection of the kind of morons running the hiring pipeline in whatever company than you or your abilities. I'm in a pretty decent sized FAANG-adjacent tech company right now, and for example, the one team we have that's doing lots of hiring is run by the two biggest jerks in the place. Whether it's unconscious bias, or just straight-up discrimination, I've noticed that all the folks hired to this team all (mysteriously) happen to come from Texas and to have worked in a certain re-insurance company the jerks came from. So you come along and interview with that team, with a good background and abilities, and don't get that job, and some bozo with a geographic handicap gets it instead of you - that's what's going on. But all you see is another rejection.
megamix 3y ago
Learn a real craft instead that doesn't put you on a balance sheet. This career and economy movement has tricked all of us into building an identity from work. I believe strongly that we should start more anti-work movements. No not like the one at reddit.
- mooreds 3y ago
  Hmm. What is an example of a 'real craft'? I'm not sure I follow.
  - megamix 3y ago
    Oh my bad! You can either categorize them as 'artisans' and 'blue collar'. E.g. in no particular order: metal smith (silver gold etc), welder, carpentry, plumber, mechanic, fine artist, sculptor, textile. Basically the 'real trades' that have been around and should be around for many years. The type of jobs that the white collars can't do without. Either you outperform other CEOs and get rich on your own business, or you go this other path as I exemplified :D. Now the gray zone is your regular 9-5, probably good co-workers, you make good living and work to live. The downside is that flexibility. So you need to think about what trades are you willing to make. I didn't mean to sound so 'dramatic' and pretend it's all black and white.
    - brailsafe 3y ago
      I don't really see how any of those examples are intrinsically different than being an independent contractor of any kind, with the exception of them being physical or purely artistic endeavors.
    - quonn 3y ago
      > metal smith (silver gold etc), welder, carpentry, plumber, mechanic, fine artist, sculptor, textile Industrial production has had a huge impact on many of those and will continue doing so. It‘s wrong to romanticize these jobs, they are just a likely to be automated.
SillyUsername 3y ago
Glad to see this isn't another "woe is me" article, but shows life in perspective. I've had similar, in the 2000s (dot-com bubble) I was laid off from around 3 jobs in 2 years while trying to buy a first home. In 2018-2020 I went through 3 jobs whilst caring for a severely ill hospitalised child and some very selfish work colleagues. Work sucks sometimes, but it's unimportant in the grand scheme of things when personal and life issues show up. Unfortunately companies often don't care, or anyone outside of your family to be fair, so treat them like they treat you, throw them away when you no longer get benefit from them.
throwaway98627 3y ago
As someone whose team lost their jobs this week, thank you for this perspective. Brightest bunch I ever worked with, and a way too big part of my identity.
rkuzsma 3y ago
I was moved by your personal story, Irina. Thank you for sharing it with the world. I hope others who are struggling through similar challenges discover this article and find new hope and perspective in your words. I am happy you found your voice again.
iExploder 3y ago
Deep story. The system is flawed -The capital take over of small family ran busineses by big corporate have not served the civilized west very well. It made all of insignificant and constantly having to fight over scraps in sea of insecurity, offering nothing of substance, a doomed society.
shipscode 3y ago
The health insurance aspect of the story seems intentionally dramatized, the author forgets to mention being able to opt in to COBRA altogether if their insurance ran out. Stories like this are also why a lot of women now are embracing the tradwife trend.
- voganmother42 3y ago
  Have some empathy, or even a sense of perspective: imagine how it may be interpreted by someone going through it, health issues can feel overwhelming and inescapable. > Stories like this are also why a lot of women now are embracing the tradwife trend. Lol, sources please
- nusl 3y ago
  Your outlook on life seems to be incredibly negative and engrained in finding fault in everything. Nitpicking this article over this doesn’t make a lot of sense, and your strange comment about women less so. Perhaps take some time to re-examine why you’re so toxic. Based on how pale your comment history is, it’s not new either
nusl 3y ago
As others have mentioned, the relationship between employee and employer seems to be more openly regarded as a business arrangement (which it always was) and not as much of a place-to-be-loyal-to than I’ve historically seen. Getting let go can cause lasting problems, specially for a person’s self-esteem or confidence. With so many being let go lately I think the sentiment is also changing a bit. You’re hired to make money for the employer, or solve problems to reduce costs. But now, even if you meet all of your requirements you can still be let go because the company’s shareholders aren’t seeing the growth they want despite the company being wildly profitable anyway. So what’s the point in giving your free time (after work hours) to a place, or sacrificing real life things, when the company will just drop you whenever for whatever anyway? The illusion of loyalty is breaking and I think that’s a good thing. Loyalty to a company, IMO, largely results in holding your career back if you’re shirking better things for the “good enough” thing you have now because you’re loyal. But the company isn’t loyal to you, and specially not if they’re under some sort of pressure to cut costs. Not saying don’t work to your fullest or apply yourself, or never go beyond, because those things are kind of part of work, but the undying loyalty is wilting. Add to that the difficulty of finding jobs because companies made stupid short-term decisions (probably knowing they were gonna need to drop people later) in the name of quick money during COVID, and you’re left feeling pretty dejected about the whole thing. Work, get paid, look after you. Company will look after itself. If they don’t, move on and make sure you’re okay. The company’s health is not your problem (assuming you’re doing your work) unless you’re one of the folk responsible for its life.
fargle 3y ago
usually when i read these type of articles, i don't have a lot of sympathy for the folks who didn't know how lucky or entitled they were and probably still don't quite. not the case here. i really appreciate her attitude. i raise a glass to health and success. i think it's true that skills and being a good engineer may not necessarily keep you safe from a layoff, but a tough smart person with the right attitude will often be a great engineer too. and that kind will always be appreciated and will survive.
marcofrancesco 3y ago
[dead]

238 points by softwaredoug 3y ago

It was a revelation the first time I learned how disposable I was. The flip side to “work isn’t your identity” is I find that I do my best work when I’m fully engaged and care deeply about my coworkers.

OldGuyInTheClub 3y ago

Tying health insurance to employment. Was, is, and will be nuts.

crooked-v 3y ago
Unfortunately, the US has a huge number of people who would rather have insurance-run for-profit death panels than government-run non-profit death panels.
- bruce511 3y ago
  I'm not downvoting you, because I assume uour comment was in good faith. The phrase "death panels" though is unfortunate. Nobody has death panels, nobody wants death panels, no health system anywhere private or public has death panels. It's just a scary phrase used in a political context. Ultimately all health systems make choices at every level of care. Triage is a thing. Organ recipient lists are a thing. Hospital occupancy, and theatre usage are things. In a perfect world we'd all get perfect medical care the instant we needed it. There'd be scores of doctors sitting around doing nothing just waiting for my call. There'd be an endless supply of organs, replacement parts, hospital beds, theatres and surgeons. We don't live in that world. Hence our systems have imperfections. Not everyone gets an optimal outcome. There are no "death panels". There doesn't need to be. Limitations and resource constraints force decisions at all levels every day. Now personally I think a well managed public health system us the most equitable. Failing that private insurance has a role to play in combination either public health. Employer paid health insurance has grouping advantages, but also means you lose your income and health at the same time. Steps for affordable personal health insurance are good. There's some way to go yet, but its a step in the right direction. Having at least some part of the health system be available to the uninsured (ie non-profit) would also be beneficial. So yeah, the US system, as it is, is great for those who can pay, terrible for everyone else. It favours the few with good jobs, and secure tenure. If you're in that group, well done. Other countries with national health have their own resource constraints. Not all individual outcomes are optional. And being rich doesn't necessarily jump you to the front of the queue. There are good outcomes, and bad outcomes, but they don't align to wealth or status (in theory.) In the US its hard to change the status quo because the country is governed by the rich, paid for by the richer. The system currently favors the rich. QED.
  - crooked-v 3y ago
    > The phrase "death panels" though is unfortunate. The phrase "death panels" is intentionally sarcastic mockery of the kind of people who unironically repeat Republican lies, by way of pointing out how even if the lie was true, it would be less harmful than the current state of affairs. I would have thought that was pretty obvious, but I guess not.
  - DinaCoder99 3y ago
    > Nobody has death panels Arguably this is just a description of private insurance, ironically. A group of people decides who gets treatment and who doesn't—except the scarcity here is "profit", not a real resource.
    - anotheruser13 3y ago
      In 1945, President Truman proposed a national healthcare plan to Congress. In his plan, he outlined five main goals: Address the lack of trained healthcare professionals in all communities. Grow public health services. Increase funding to medical research and education. Lower the cost of individual medical care. Bring attention to the loss of income when severe illness takes hold. Source https://www.trumanlibrary.gov/education/presidential-inquiries/challenge-national-healthcare https://www.trumanlibrary.gov/education/presidential-inquiri...
- eru 3y ago
  Well, they could also deregulate their insurance and healthcare markets a lot. Profit is only a small part of the overall costs. See https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/04/20/the-amish-health-care-system/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/04/20/the-amish-health-care-... for what's possible in the US right now: > Amish people spend only a fifth as much as you do on health care, and their health is fine. What can we learn from them?
  - greenie_beans 3y ago
    yes, this is a good example of an anti-capitalist solution to health care.
    - eru 3y ago
      From the article: > Patients sometimes went along with this, being indifferent between spending $4 of someone else’s money or $2000 of someone else’s money. Everything in the US health system is like this, and the Amish avoid all of it. They have a normal free market in medical care where people pay for a product with their own money (or their community’s money) and have incentives to check how much it costs before they buy it. I do want to over-emphasize this one, and honestly I am surprised Amish health care costs are only ten times cheaper than ours are. People voluntarily getting together to do stuff and not forcing anything on anyone is pretty compatible with capitalism (whether it's 'capitalist' by itself is a question of definition). The main thing I take from the article is: you can lower costs dramatically, if you can avoid some of the more onerous regulations. And as a second point: if you can build up a reputation for being honest and trustworthy, you can bring down transaction costs a lot. The point about Amish never suing doctors mixes both: they are capitalising on that point via reputation; but in principle you could also sign those rights away with a contract. But while we allow companies to sign these kinds of contracts with each other, regulations doesn't allow patients to sign those rights away.
      - greenie_beans 3y ago
        i'm sorry but this is a very anti-capitalist solution — a collective, shared resource in a community that everybody has access to if they contribute to it, and the organization is structured in a way that all participants have the chance to participate in the decision making. you can rationalize that it's not however you wish but that won't change the fact that the amish community is very much at odds with capitalism, and the way they do healthcare is very anti-capitalist. > People voluntarily getting together to do stuff and not forcing anything on anyone is pretty compatible with capitalism (whether it's 'capitalist' by itself is a question of definition). this is how anarchism works, too. anarchism is an anti-capitalist political theory and one of the fundamental premise is free, voluntary association. people always see the words "free market" and conflate free market with capitalism when a free market can be a component of any economic structure. it's okay if you agree with anti-capitalist solutions, i swear that the capitalist gods won't smite you. i appreciate scott alexander's slimely writing skills to get capitalists to think that an anti-capitalist solution is a good idea.
sfRattan 3y ago
My recollection is that health care and other, similar benefits were incentives employers could offer to attract and retain talent during a period when FDR had wage and price controls in place. That is: healthcare was exempt from wage controls, so you could offer a healthcare plan or an improved plan in lieu of a raise. Then, employers noticed, "you mean offering them healthcare makes it harder for our employees to leave? And public perception of healthcare means it will probably always be a tax advantaged way to allocate our expenses?" And here we are, eight decades and change later. Note: I think public perception of healthcare as a moral good in principle is correct. It's just that there's a wicked mal-alignment of incentives which leverages that perception to cement a bad solution in place.
- bdw5204 3y ago
  That's basically my understanding of how we got into that mess. There are still significant tax subsidies for employer provided health insurance and most people don't realize that the COBRA price is the actual cost of their "cheap" or "free" employer provided insurance for the same reason they think their "income tax refund" is actually "free money" from the IRS rather than their money that the government held onto without interest. The average person is not very smart and half of the population isn't even that smart so of course they fall for these intelligence insulting tricks invented by politicians.
  - whiterknight 3y ago
    Most people are otherwise able to navigate their life just fine, but they struggle with systems that are ridiculously complex and opaque. Industrial society reduces your direct agency and forces you to rely on more sophisticated forms of influence.
- OldGuyInTheClub 3y ago
  "Note: I think public perception of healthcare as a moral good in principle is correct. It's just that there's a wicked mal-alignment of incentives which leverages that perception to cement a bad solution in place." That is everywhere now. Birth, education, courtship/marriage, employment, ... all the way to death - everything is analyzed, pessimized, and stripmined for every last penny. "Enshittification" is all over HN and with good reason.

aquarkortwo 3y ago

"Something else changed. Suddenly, the two layoffs stopped being of any consequence. They quite frankly didn’t matter anymore." Beautiful piece. I feel this very deeply these days. Loved ones are all that matter in life (including ones no longer in my life). The ideas here remind me a bit of the book "Man's Search for Meaning."

soared 3y ago
Excellent book, on my nightstand right now!
thierrydamiba 3y ago
How do you balance this mindset with the cold hard reality that one needs to make money? I’m currently unemployed and I am lucky to have a generous runway, but that runway will run out eventually. The idea that nothing matters outside of family, friends, etc is tempting but I have made sacrifices in relationships with others and myself to be a more employable candidate. For example I’m taking LLM classes on Sunday mornings which precludes me from interacting with loved ones. I can try to schedule things around that-but sometimes that isn’t possible. I’m also working on other things, my health, my fitness, my spiritually. Finding balance has been hard. I’m in a good spot now, but I do find myself wondering if my ratios of time invested are correct given the fact that I also agree that loved ones are all that matter in life.
- jhaenchen 3y ago
  Sounds like you're doing the right thing: trying to find a moderate position
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  You do the work for the money, but you don't invest yourself in the work: you care about the people who love you back at home. In the end, the work (caveat edge cases) will be meaningless. You're converting time into fiat you need to pay for life. You can always make more money, time is non renewable. "Today is your last day." "Meh, whatevs, going home to my family." https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/05/life-weeks.html https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/05/life-weeks.html https://waitbutwhy.com/2013/08/putting-time-in-perspective.html https://waitbutwhy.com/2013/08/putting-time-in-perspective.h... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Top_Five_Regrets_of_the_Dying https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Top_Five_Regrets_of_the_Dy... (20+ years in tech, have been laid off twice, fired once, aware none of it really matters, we're all dead eventually, a blip in the cosmic timeline)

vunderba 3y ago

If you only take one thing from this article, let it be this line: My work is only part of my identity. I'd argue that unless you're literally curing cancer, it should be the least important part of your identity. I've never let work be more than the tiniest facet of my existence that provides the resources necessary to well... not die. I understand this isn't the easiest thing for most people - tribalism and pack identity is a powerful thing. It's why we have entires throngs of people who follow celebrities / twitch streamers / influencers / voice actors / etc. It's why things like the "reality distortion field" around Steve Jobs exists. And well, it's why when people suddenly find themselves let go from a job, it apparently affects them in a powerfully and I would argue irrationally emotional way. In a way, these things have sort of acted as a de-facto substitute for more traditional tribalism (patriotism, national pride, etc) for a lot of Gen Z / Millennials. Shrugs. Or maybe this is just a personal observation. Note: Just to be fair, I think her breakdown was FAR FAR more understandable than many people who are let go given that: Her job provided health insurance for her family She has kids who depended on her Needing surgery

SR2Z 3y ago
IMO it's OK for work to be a big part of your identity. People should strive to achieve things professionally; it's a very human thing to master a craft for a living. But, to be fair, work != your specific company. It's stupid to tie your identity to the people hiring you.
- famahar 3y ago
  In University the ultimate goal of almost every Comp Sci student was to work at a FAANG (or whatever it's called). Nothing else mattered. Students walked around with Google and Amazon t-shirts and Stickers. So much of University your identity was tied to working for big tech. Cult like when I look back.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    I walked around my university with whatever shirt was given to me for free, so long as it was comfortable enough. Not much has changed in that regard as an adult in tech.

andyg_blog 3y ago

Sometimes it takes an existential event in our lives to really drive home what actually matters. On your death bed you won't wish that you spent more time delivering value to a company (even a great one) than spending time nurturing relationships with loved ones. On another note, your value as a human is not the same as the economic value you produce, and it's too easy to conflate the two

Aeolun 3y ago
> On your death bed you won't wish that you spent more time delivering value to a company (even a great one) than spending time nurturing relationships with loved ones. To some extend. But I spend a lot of time with my loved ones. I would regret losing that the most, but I can totally imagine myself also feeling sad about that feature or project I never got to finish.
twojobsoneboss 3y ago
Unfortunately you have to project substantial economic value to live a life of dignity (esp with a family) and so there’s no getting away from it with the current state of affairs You can’t just “live a nourishing life”, you have to do both
- bamboozled 3y ago
  I can tell you don’t make a bunch of money and play videos games in your spare time. I have a family and IMO you sir are correct.
- swat535 3y ago
  What a ridiculous statement, are you saying that lower income families don't live a life of dignity because they can't project "substantial economic" value? If your argument is about providing enough to have a roof over your head, then that doesn't equate to "substantial economic value". I find such obsession with wealth very unhealthy.
  - silverquiet 3y ago

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ahstilde 3y ago

I worked with Irina (at Parse.ly!). She's an incredible engineer. Any back end team would be lucky to have her.

softwaredoug 3y ago
I know her by reputation as being a great engineer from Elastic and Parsely. I hope she lands on her feet.

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tock 3y ago

It's really hard to maintain this mindset. I remember getting a health scare and everything related to work just seemed so insignificant. After a few days of receiving the good news regarding my health I was once again mentally wrestling with the random stupid stuff happening at work :/

pants2 3y ago
I think that's just the Hedonic treadmill in action. Everything is relative. That's why you see retirees in the HOA getting just as worked up about seasonal decorating rules as diplomats fighting for the future of their country.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  “The fights are so vicious, because the stakes are so low.” (HOA case)

bogota 3y ago

This is something i think has been slowly changing in the US. At least among the people i know. Work is now just work. Five years ago it had to be your passion it is what you wanted or at least i wanted to be defined by. After seeing how little any company cares about people work is what i try to spend the least amount of time doing. At 5 or ideally 4 i clock out and only respond if I am paged. Additionally i have checked out of the tech scene and just spend work time on any needed continuing education. Am I a good developer anymore? Who cares. Im good enough to pass whatever the stupid circuit of interviews is and honestly that is all that matters anymore.

nlitened 3y ago
> This is something i think has been slowly changing in the US. At least among the people i know. I think your cohort is just aging.
- mooreds 3y ago
  It's hard to know, right? I think that COVID knocked the crap out of a lot of social norms, one of those being "live to work". But it could also be aging, as nothing helps you understand life is short like seeing obituaries of people only a few years older than you (or even younger than you).
  - roenxi 3y ago
    I'd guess the sequence is people start off young and naive, live through a downturn and then discover that the contract lays out precisely what their employer thinks of them. Doing the job then going home is not a new philosophy. The people living to work are just gullible.
    - nickd2001 3y ago
      As you work in tech for a number of years you discover that (a) employers don't become permanently more loyal or generous to you if you "work your ass off" and (b) working long hours doesn't actually make you more productive overall anyway. I suspect one reason for ageism in the industry is that management are too inexperienced themselves to have discovered either of these.

iamflimflam1 3y ago

Whenever I read articles like this, I’m so grateful that in the U.K. healthcare is not tied to your job. The NHS may struggle and have its issues. But I have never had to experience the stress of the thought of losing access to care.

mooreds 3y ago
I live in the USA and always wonder what awesome companies or organizations are we missing out on because people are tied to their employer due to healthcare. I know at least one couple close to retirement that is waiting until one of them can get onto cobra for the months before they can get onto Medicare. (They just budgeted for cobra in their planning.) I like how the Aussies do it (or at least how they did it last I looked): basic public healthcare plan provided by the government, then supplemental plans offered by the employer as a benefit.
- hestefisk 3y ago
  Aussie here. Very few employers here offer health plans. Medicare is more or less like NHS in the UK. If you earn more than a certain amount, you have to pay for your own private health insurance. It is significantly cheaper than in the US. Source: myself
  - rad_gruchalski 3y ago
    > If you earn more than a certain amount, you have to pay for your own private health insurance Do you fall back into Medicare if you start earning less afterwards?
    - paulstovell 3y ago
      You don’t actually have to pay for your own, but you are taxed an extra 0.5% if you don’t and earn above a certain amount. So in practice rather than pay the additional tax, people get private healthcare. If you then start earning below the threshold you can cancel the private healthcare and go back to the public system.

Simon_ORourke 3y ago

That's rough, and as my Grandma used to say "disasters always come in threes". I've been through too many rounds of layoffs, headcount reductions, down-sizing, strategic re-alignments or whatever you care to call them, and each of them sucked. The one thing to take away from it, is that these are just random chance events by and large and not a reflection on the performance of good engineers. Getting re-hired itself can be another random event - and again, not making it through interviews may be more a reflection of the kind of morons running the hiring pipeline in whatever company than you or your abilities. I'm in a pretty decent sized FAANG-adjacent tech company right now, and for example, the one team we have that's doing lots of hiring is run by the two biggest jerks in the place. Whether it's unconscious bias, or just straight-up discrimination, I've noticed that all the folks hired to this team all (mysteriously) happen to come from Texas and to have worked in a certain re-insurance company the jerks came from. So you come along and interview with that team, with a good background and abilities, and don't get that job, and some bozo with a geographic handicap gets it instead of you - that's what's going on. But all you see is another rejection.

megamix 3y ago

Learn a real craft instead that doesn't put you on a balance sheet. This career and economy movement has tricked all of us into building an identity from work. I believe strongly that we should start more anti-work movements. No not like the one at reddit.

mooreds 3y ago
Hmm. What is an example of a 'real craft'? I'm not sure I follow.
- megamix 3y ago
  Oh my bad! You can either categorize them as 'artisans' and 'blue collar'. E.g. in no particular order: metal smith (silver gold etc), welder, carpentry, plumber, mechanic, fine artist, sculptor, textile. Basically the 'real trades' that have been around and should be around for many years. The type of jobs that the white collars can't do without. Either you outperform other CEOs and get rich on your own business, or you go this other path as I exemplified :D. Now the gray zone is your regular 9-5, probably good co-workers, you make good living and work to live. The downside is that flexibility. So you need to think about what trades are you willing to make. I didn't mean to sound so 'dramatic' and pretend it's all black and white.
  - brailsafe 3y ago
    I don't really see how any of those examples are intrinsically different than being an independent contractor of any kind, with the exception of them being physical or purely artistic endeavors.
  - quonn 3y ago
    > metal smith (silver gold etc), welder, carpentry, plumber, mechanic, fine artist, sculptor, textile Industrial production has had a huge impact on many of those and will continue doing so. It‘s wrong to romanticize these jobs, they are just a likely to be automated.

SillyUsername 3y ago

Glad to see this isn't another "woe is me" article, but shows life in perspective. I've had similar, in the 2000s (dot-com bubble) I was laid off from around 3 jobs in 2 years while trying to buy a first home. In 2018-2020 I went through 3 jobs whilst caring for a severely ill hospitalised child and some very selfish work colleagues. Work sucks sometimes, but it's unimportant in the grand scheme of things when personal and life issues show up. Unfortunately companies often don't care, or anyone outside of your family to be fair, so treat them like they treat you, throw them away when you no longer get benefit from them.

throwaway98627 3y ago

As someone whose team lost their jobs this week, thank you for this perspective. Brightest bunch I ever worked with, and a way too big part of my identity.

rkuzsma 3y ago

I was moved by your personal story, Irina. Thank you for sharing it with the world. I hope others who are struggling through similar challenges discover this article and find new hope and perspective in your words. I am happy you found your voice again.

iExploder 3y ago

Deep story. The system is flawed -The capital take over of small family ran busineses by big corporate have not served the civilized west very well. It made all of insignificant and constantly having to fight over scraps in sea of insecurity, offering nothing of substance, a doomed society.

shipscode 3y ago

The health insurance aspect of the story seems intentionally dramatized, the author forgets to mention being able to opt in to COBRA altogether if their insurance ran out. Stories like this are also why a lot of women now are embracing the tradwife trend.

voganmother42 3y ago
Have some empathy, or even a sense of perspective: imagine how it may be interpreted by someone going through it, health issues can feel overwhelming and inescapable. > Stories like this are also why a lot of women now are embracing the tradwife trend. Lol, sources please
nusl 3y ago
Your outlook on life seems to be incredibly negative and engrained in finding fault in everything. Nitpicking this article over this doesn’t make a lot of sense, and your strange comment about women less so. Perhaps take some time to re-examine why you’re so toxic. Based on how pale your comment history is, it’s not new either

nusl 3y ago

As others have mentioned, the relationship between employee and employer seems to be more openly regarded as a business arrangement (which it always was) and not as much of a place-to-be-loyal-to than I’ve historically seen. Getting let go can cause lasting problems, specially for a person’s self-esteem or confidence. With so many being let go lately I think the sentiment is also changing a bit. You’re hired to make money for the employer, or solve problems to reduce costs. But now, even if you meet all of your requirements you can still be let go because the company’s shareholders aren’t seeing the growth they want despite the company being wildly profitable anyway. So what’s the point in giving your free time (after work hours) to a place, or sacrificing real life things, when the company will just drop you whenever for whatever anyway? The illusion of loyalty is breaking and I think that’s a good thing. Loyalty to a company, IMO, largely results in holding your career back if you’re shirking better things for the “good enough” thing you have now because you’re loyal. But the company isn’t loyal to you, and specially not if they’re under some sort of pressure to cut costs. Not saying don’t work to your fullest or apply yourself, or never go beyond, because those things are kind of part of work, but the undying loyalty is wilting. Add to that the difficulty of finding jobs because companies made stupid short-term decisions (probably knowing they were gonna need to drop people later) in the name of quick money during COVID, and you’re left feeling pretty dejected about the whole thing. Work, get paid, look after you. Company will look after itself. If they don’t, move on and make sure you’re okay. The company’s health is not your problem (assuming you’re doing your work) unless you’re one of the folk responsible for its life.

fargle 3y ago

usually when i read these type of articles, i don't have a lot of sympathy for the folks who didn't know how lucky or entitled they were and probably still don't quite. not the case here. i really appreciate her attitude. i raise a glass to health and success. i think it's true that skills and being a good engineer may not necessarily keep you safe from a layoff, but a tough smart person with the right attitude will often be a great engineer too. and that kind will always be appreciated and will survive.

marcofrancesco 3y ago

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