4 ms·

The other side of the issue is extroverts wanting to extrovert, managers worrying about losing out on the watercooler aspect of career advancement, and the coll

The other side of the issue is extroverts wanting to extrovert, managers worrying about losing out on the watercooler aspect of career advancement, and the collective will of companies with commercial real estate holdings not wanting to crash that particular market. Cities want it because there are plenty of businesses that rely on office workers buying food etc in downtown cores. None of those have anything to do with the quality of life of employees or benefit to the company productivity wise. That’s why nobody cares.

denimnerd42 3y ago
there's also the soft-layoff side. You can encourage those pesky mothers or child caretakers to quit as well as those that don't live very close or can't stand the office for any myriad of reasons..
15457345234 3y ago
> Cities want it because there are plenty of businesses that rely on office workers buying food etc in downtown cores. So casually dismissing the fact that this provides a HUGE amount of employment and revenue and, in turn, encourages face to face socialisation which builds communities and social cohesion. Like... what's your plan for these people, this huge proportion of the population that can't work remotely, won't enjoy working remotely, don't want to work remotely etc. People enjoy socialising. That's why so many TV programs are made about work and the office environment. People enjoy the social aspect of it. It's not all 'the office' - that's a massively cynical viewpoint. Most people get something out of going to the office, date co-workers, play golf with their colleagues, you know. Society is not going to change to revolve around shut-in people haters. You're a minority. You're not normal.
- renewedrebecca 3y ago
  nice black and white thinking there. it's not an either-or situation. people who want to go into an office should. people who don't want to, shouldn't have to. and hell, with the way you seem to think, why would anyone want to go into an office and be around people like you all day.
- ripjaygn 3y ago
  > So casually dismissing the fact that this provides a HUGE amount of employment and revenue At this point just tax the remote workers and pay those folks to work on social or community programs, or dig holes and fill them in again, which is net positive because it means their health and fitness improves. Why force people to give up their valuable family and personal time to pollute the air and clog up roads, create more accidents, and clog up transit? Time is the one thing in life that you can never get back. You're also ignoring the fact that remote work results in stores and restaurants closer to home getting more business. > Like... what's your plan for these people, this huge proportion of the population that can't work remotely, won't enjoy working remotely, don't want to work remotely etc Here's a plan, let them... work in the office? I don't see remote advocates insist that everyone work remotely, but I do see RTO advocates like you wanting to force everyone back to the office. Why? > Society is not going to change to revolve around shut-in people haters. You're a minority. You're not normal. Yet people like you seem to be unable to socialize without forcing people to hang out near you against their will to the point of threatening their livelihood. That's not normal. I can socialize fine with people around and near me. And hang out with coworkers outside the office too.
- 000ooo000 3y ago
  Ignoring the rest of your ridiculous comment, >That's why so many TV programs are made about work and the office environment. People enjoy the social aspect of it. Attempting to equate the appeal of some TV entertainment with the reality of travelling to and spending 40 hours a week in an office environment is laughable. That's like saying people enjoy war movies cause they like war. Plain idiotic.
- derekp7 3y ago
  Breaking a bunch of windows will provide just as much value to the window repair workers.
- spamizbad 3y ago
  > Society is not going to change to revolve around shut-in people haters. You're a minority. You're not normal. I like my coworkers and several of them are my friends but even before COVID I still spent around 90% of my time at the office working - because that was my job. I basically got to socialize during lunch and maybe had a quick chat here or there but nothing meaningful. I get that certain roles probably allow more socialization but that hasn't been my experience working in tech. I had stuff to get gone, people expected me to deliver things in a timely manner, so I couldn't just blow off work to shoot the shit with my colleagues. Believe me, I would have enjoyed that but it wasn't fair to the company or good for my career.
- samatman 3y ago
  > That's why so many TV programs are made about work and the office Ah yes, beloved British comedy The Office, whose subject is how nice it is to work in one.
- cnasc 3y ago
  > this provides a HUGE amount of employment and revenue Sounds like an opportunity for businesses to open near where people live rather than where they work. > encourages face to face socialisation which builds communities and social cohesion Every time I've commuted to an office, I haven't been a part of the local community. I've been part of the community where I live. Working remotely I spend more time building actual social cohesion in my community. > Society is not going to change to revolve around shut-in people haters. You're a minority. You're not normal. Making small talk while the coffee is brewing is not a real relationship, if anything it sounds like you're the one advocating "people-hating." Maybe if you didn't spend so much time at the office you'd be able to socialize for real (you know, like a normal person).
tpmoney 3y ago
>The other side of the issue is extroverts wanting to extrovert, I *really* wish people would stop with this overly simplified take. I'm an introvert. WFH was something before the pandemic I thought I wanted. It was miserable. Turns out that when you're an introvert, you don't have great "maintaining a social relationship" skills and things that happen naturally when you're forced by proximity to work and interact with other people now require dedicating specific effort towards. If trying to maintain a good social relationship with my co-workers was a drain on my energy levels before, having to do the things necessary to do that AND also having to put extra effort into making it happen was even more draining. And that doesn't even get into the other more subtle "anti-introvert" consequences of WFH. Like requiring extensive use of chat systems, leading to extreme self-consciousness over the fact that every "hey I'm sure I'm being stupid here, can you help me find the obvious thing I'm missing" or "I swear I've seen this documented before but confluence is awful, can someone point me at the instructions for Foo" moment is now a part of the permanent company record. And more than that, it's no longer a simple call over the cube wall to my immediate co-workers, it's in a public channel broadcast to everyone who happens to be there. Or the number of times we'd be discussing something and then have to deal with a micro-manager butting in the next day after they'd read half the thread and mis-interpreted everything was massively increased. And yes, in theory you can have a separate channel for every combination of people you might want to be talking to at any given time, but in practice you often need to share things or bring in outside people from time to time and having to copy context to an entirely new channel every single time is a waste of time and energy and simply broken compared to being able to just include people in the channel. Or the fact that because all communication now has to happen via text medium, if you want to keep an eye on something, you literally have to stop and context switch to keep that eye on it. It's no longer possible to work on one thing and listen with half an ear to your teammates on something else unless everyone wants to be on headsets and in an open mic call all day long. Or the incessant pings of notifications all day long. Yes you can mute notifications, but you very quickly find out that if you're not at least then dedicating specific times in the middle of your day to again stop and context switch, you'll be missing things you probably didn't want to miss, or be failing to respond to requests and questions. It's like all the worst parts of coming back from vacation to a fully loaded inbox, but every day. Made even worse because people know you're not on vacation so now you have to balance reducing your context switching against not delaying responses too long so you don't start looking like an ass or a flake. And sure, your co-workers are probably in the same boat and get it just fine, but again remember that all of this is public and timestamped and someone just might decide to take an interest in how long it takes you to respond. Or the fact that now every meeting is probably recorded, and you need to be eternally vigilant about an open mic and camera. Or the lack of physical and mental separation of your work space and your home. Not everyone is blessed enough to live in a house where they can dedicate one whole room to an office space. A number of my "unwind after work" hobbies were on permanent hiatus because the space they would have occupied was instead my office space. Turns out when you're not getting any of the already limited social interaction you normally get as an introvert and mix in not being able to engage in your preferred hobbies, things get miserable really quickly. To be clear, I prefer a flexible policy. There are absolutely benefits to being able to work from home when needed or wanted. But I came out of the pandemic STRONGLY preferring to be in the office as often as I could. And yes I know things will be different for different people; some folks won't be bothered by the things that bothered me. But that's also my point. We're all different, and just because I'm an introvert doesn't mean I'm a misanthropic hermit either.

denimnerd42 3y ago

there's also the soft-layoff side. You can encourage those pesky mothers or child caretakers to quit as well as those that don't live very close or can't stand the office for any myriad of reasons..

15457345234 3y ago

> Cities want it because there are plenty of businesses that rely on office workers buying food etc in downtown cores. So casually dismissing the fact that this provides a HUGE amount of employment and revenue and, in turn, encourages face to face socialisation which builds communities and social cohesion. Like... what's your plan for these people, this huge proportion of the population that can't work remotely, won't enjoy working remotely, don't want to work remotely etc. People enjoy socialising. That's why so many TV programs are made about work and the office environment. People enjoy the social aspect of it. It's not all 'the office' - that's a massively cynical viewpoint. Most people get something out of going to the office, date co-workers, play golf with their colleagues, you know. Society is not going to change to revolve around shut-in people haters. You're a minority. You're not normal.

renewedrebecca 3y ago
nice black and white thinking there. it's not an either-or situation. people who want to go into an office should. people who don't want to, shouldn't have to. and hell, with the way you seem to think, why would anyone want to go into an office and be around people like you all day.
ripjaygn 3y ago
> So casually dismissing the fact that this provides a HUGE amount of employment and revenue At this point just tax the remote workers and pay those folks to work on social or community programs, or dig holes and fill them in again, which is net positive because it means their health and fitness improves. Why force people to give up their valuable family and personal time to pollute the air and clog up roads, create more accidents, and clog up transit? Time is the one thing in life that you can never get back. You're also ignoring the fact that remote work results in stores and restaurants closer to home getting more business. > Like... what's your plan for these people, this huge proportion of the population that can't work remotely, won't enjoy working remotely, don't want to work remotely etc Here's a plan, let them... work in the office? I don't see remote advocates insist that everyone work remotely, but I do see RTO advocates like you wanting to force everyone back to the office. Why? > Society is not going to change to revolve around shut-in people haters. You're a minority. You're not normal. Yet people like you seem to be unable to socialize without forcing people to hang out near you against their will to the point of threatening their livelihood. That's not normal. I can socialize fine with people around and near me. And hang out with coworkers outside the office too.
000ooo000 3y ago
Ignoring the rest of your ridiculous comment, >That's why so many TV programs are made about work and the office environment. People enjoy the social aspect of it. Attempting to equate the appeal of some TV entertainment with the reality of travelling to and spending 40 hours a week in an office environment is laughable. That's like saying people enjoy war movies cause they like war. Plain idiotic.
derekp7 3y ago
Breaking a bunch of windows will provide just as much value to the window repair workers.
spamizbad 3y ago
> Society is not going to change to revolve around shut-in people haters. You're a minority. You're not normal. I like my coworkers and several of them are my friends but even before COVID I still spent around 90% of my time at the office working - because that was my job. I basically got to socialize during lunch and maybe had a quick chat here or there but nothing meaningful. I get that certain roles probably allow more socialization but that hasn't been my experience working in tech. I had stuff to get gone, people expected me to deliver things in a timely manner, so I couldn't just blow off work to shoot the shit with my colleagues. Believe me, I would have enjoyed that but it wasn't fair to the company or good for my career.
samatman 3y ago
> That's why so many TV programs are made about work and the office Ah yes, beloved British comedy The Office, whose subject is how nice it is to work in one.
cnasc 3y ago
> this provides a HUGE amount of employment and revenue Sounds like an opportunity for businesses to open near where people live rather than where they work. > encourages face to face socialisation which builds communities and social cohesion Every time I've commuted to an office, I haven't been a part of the local community. I've been part of the community where I live. Working remotely I spend more time building actual social cohesion in my community. > Society is not going to change to revolve around shut-in people haters. You're a minority. You're not normal. Making small talk while the coffee is brewing is not a real relationship, if anything it sounds like you're the one advocating "people-hating." Maybe if you didn't spend so much time at the office you'd be able to socialize for real (you know, like a normal person).

tpmoney 3y ago

>The other side of the issue is extroverts wanting to extrovert, I *really* wish people would stop with this overly simplified take. I'm an introvert. WFH was something before the pandemic I thought I wanted. It was miserable. Turns out that when you're an introvert, you don't have great "maintaining a social relationship" skills and things that happen naturally when you're forced by proximity to work and interact with other people now require dedicating specific effort towards. If trying to maintain a good social relationship with my co-workers was a drain on my energy levels before, having to do the things necessary to do that AND also having to put extra effort into making it happen was even more draining. And that doesn't even get into the other more subtle "anti-introvert" consequences of WFH. Like requiring extensive use of chat systems, leading to extreme self-consciousness over the fact that every "hey I'm sure I'm being stupid here, can you help me find the obvious thing I'm missing" or "I swear I've seen this documented before but confluence is awful, can someone point me at the instructions for Foo" moment is now a part of the permanent company record. And more than that, it's no longer a simple call over the cube wall to my immediate co-workers, it's in a public channel broadcast to everyone who happens to be there. Or the number of times we'd be discussing something and then have to deal with a micro-manager butting in the next day after they'd read half the thread and mis-interpreted everything was massively increased. And yes, in theory you can have a separate channel for every combination of people you might want to be talking to at any given time, but in practice you often need to share things or bring in outside people from time to time and having to copy context to an entirely new channel every single time is a waste of time and energy and simply broken compared to being able to just include people in the channel. Or the fact that because all communication now has to happen via text medium, if you want to keep an eye on something, you literally have to stop and context switch to keep that eye on it. It's no longer possible to work on one thing and listen with half an ear to your teammates on something else unless everyone wants to be on headsets and in an open mic call all day long. Or the incessant pings of notifications all day long. Yes you can mute notifications, but you very quickly find out that if you're not at least then dedicating specific times in the middle of your day to again stop and context switch, you'll be missing things you probably didn't want to miss, or be failing to respond to requests and questions. It's like all the worst parts of coming back from vacation to a fully loaded inbox, but every day. Made even worse because people know you're not on vacation so now you have to balance reducing your context switching against not delaying responses too long so you don't start looking like an ass or a flake. And sure, your co-workers are probably in the same boat and get it just fine, but again remember that all of this is public and timestamped and someone just might decide to take an interest in how long it takes you to respond. Or the fact that now every meeting is probably recorded, and you need to be eternally vigilant about an open mic and camera. Or the lack of physical and mental separation of your work space and your home. Not everyone is blessed enough to live in a house where they can dedicate one whole room to an office space. A number of my "unwind after work" hobbies were on permanent hiatus because the space they would have occupied was instead my office space. Turns out when you're not getting any of the already limited social interaction you normally get as an introvert and mix in not being able to engage in your preferred hobbies, things get miserable really quickly. To be clear, I prefer a flexible policy. There are absolutely benefits to being able to work from home when needed or wanted. But I came out of the pandemic STRONGLY preferring to be in the office as often as I could. And yes I know things will be different for different people; some folks won't be bothered by the things that bothered me. But that's also my point. We're all different, and just because I'm an introvert doesn't mean I'm a misanthropic hermit either.