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Has anyone gotten out of daily 8:30am stand-up meetings?

These have been killing me lately because I haven't been able to get to sleep before 12:30am and I'm always half an hour - 1 hour sleep deprived. It seems easier at this point to fake a weekly Friday appointment ("physical therapy") or to encourage our manager to change the schedule. Otherwise I could move to the east coast and start later. Any tips? I'm struggling with these useless meetings destroying my sleep.

stocknoob 3y ago
The med-term strategy is to seek FI and never do a standup again.
- quickthrower2 3y ago
  Step 1: Profit Step 2: … Step 3: Profit
  - stocknoob 3y ago
    That’s it, more or less: Step 1: profit (spend less than you earn) Step 2: invest the difference Step 3: profit (live off investment growth) https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/ https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-si...
cranberryturkey 3y ago
i worked at a startup that did them at 4pm localtime on thursdays only. it was awesome.
- PaulHoule 3y ago
  For my current and previous jobs we have a "standup" that involves posting a status update to Slack in the morning. I switched to writing my status update in the afternoon at the end of the day when: (1) what I was doing today was at my front of mind and easy to write down and (2) I usually have a pretty clear understanding of my plan for the next day. Instead of struggling the next morning to write down what I did, now I can look at last night's message in the morning to get a concise plan for the day and a hint to the immediate next step. (e.g. one thing I've gotten better at as I've gained experience is being able to "pack up" notes on what I am doing, go off and do something else, and then read the notes and resume the old project quickly.) I've never had any complaints about this in fact my boss thinks everyone in IT should write status updates as good as my own.
pavel_lishin 3y ago
> or to encourage our manager to change the schedule Is there a reason you haven't already tried this? I'm senior enough at our company, and work with a team that respects each other enough, that if someone suggested an 8:30am standup, I could tell them to have fun, and let me know how it went later, when I'm online. The only exception I can imagine is if we were working closely with a European team, I s'pose.
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  Someone tried to impose such a time on us. My boss said, "My people don't have to be here at that time." He set our standup at 9:50. So, yeah. If you can get your boss onboard, a lot of things become possible.
- rhelz 3y ago
  Senior enough that you can get away with this, but not so senior that you face age-related discrimination. Worked for me too as until my beard turned grey. After that, instead of assuming that you are a cracker-jack professional who refuses to do bullshit tasks, they assume you are an old dog who can't learn new tricks.
- idontwantthis 3y ago
  It also doesn’t have to be nearly as confrontational as this or the replies to this comment. Your team will probably treat you like a human being and move the meeting back an hour unless there is an important conflict.
- paulcole 3y ago
  How is the idea of telling someone that respectful in any way? You’re just laughing them off without considering it. It seems like what you meant is that you’re respected enough to get away with what you want to do, not that it’s as 2-way a street as you first said.
rhelz 3y ago
Once my 2nd-line boss complained to me that he had no idea what I was working on and why it seemed like nothing was getting done. I told him that every morning there is a stand-up meeting, which he attended, where his whole organization spends a collective man-day of work, while each of us give 5 to 10 minute updates on what we are working on, the obstacles we are facing, and what would need to be done to enable us to finish our tasks. What more could we be doing to inform him of what we were working on and what could be done to speed things up? Well, the daily meetings stopped, but I'm sure nobody will be surprised that the bastard fired me a few weeks later anyways.
syndicatedjelly 3y ago
Skip them a few times a week and provide a scheduled written update in Slack before the meeting. Just say something like “Sorry can’t make standup today, here’s my update” If someone makes a big enough stink about it then talk to them directly. You can also propose moving the standup later because it’s disruptive to have it before normal work hours. If it’s still a problem then maybe it’s time to find a new team.
nathants 3y ago
shift your working hours to 12-8, be open to changing jobs if it’s an issue.
raptorraver 3y ago
Honestly just tell them that the time of the meeting sucks and propose a better one. If they don't accept start looking for a new job.
tuckerpo 3y ago
I'm so glad I'm free from the chains of agile. Stand-ups at every company I've ever worked at asymptotically approached one of two things: 1) People pointing fingers around claiming everything is a "blocker" to mask their own inefficiencies causing a bunch of PMs and middle-managers to light everything on fire for the day because """blocker""" is such an inflammatory term, or 2) Everyone blitzes through with their report in one sentence just wanting to get back to their office and get actual work done, rendering the entire meeting useless In the past I've successfully moved an 8 AM to a 10 AM claiming something like "people need to refresh their brains as to what they did yesterday" or some other such nonsense. Give that a whirl.
- kubanczyk 3y ago
  > Everyone blitzes through with their report in one sentence just wanting to get back to their office and get actual work done, rendering the entire meeting useless I'd say the cause and effect is backwards. The useless meeting rendered the messages very terse.
xenopticon 3y ago
Freelancing fixes this. I have a no-recurring-meetings policy, all clients are informed upfront. I overcommunicate and post regular updates on Slack, etc. I had zero issues with this so far (e.g. a client dropped me because I refused daily standups). I've found that, once people have a clear idea of how much you cost per hour (not monthly or yearly), they tend to value your time more. My work calendar has been completely free for over 3 years now.
- solardev 3y ago
  Similarly, I quit my full time job last year because of too much "Agile" bullshit and useless meetings. There was a management change and my job went from being highly autonomous and very productive to micromanaged and bureaucratic, with nothing getting done anymore. I complained, they asked me for feedback, and I wrote them a detailed three-page report. They read it and told me to hide it to not embarrass management. I quit a few weeks later. Ended up doing hourly freelancing for a small company. Never had a single useless meeting. My reports are an occasional weekly summary of issues. The rest of the time I just have a timer going when I'm actually working and I bill accordingly. Extremely productive with no wasted hours on rituals and stupid ceremonies. I get paid less and don't get side perks like free lunches or company outings anymore, but I'm soooo much happier overall. It's like that old saying, people don't quit jobs, they quit their bosses. I would've stayed at my old org for half the pay and no silly perks if they just gave me a longer leash (and ideally a different boss) instead of making me jump through endless stupid hoops. I was one of their top performers, too, something like the 95th percentile or higher in performance reviews. I tried, telling different people all the way up to the VP of my branch how bad the situation was, but nobody listened. Their loss. Not long after, the CEO brought in completely new management again and laid off most of my peers. It was just a terribly managed org at the higher levels. In contrast, working for small companies, there's just not the luxury of paying for useless cruft and ceremonies to make middle management look important. That's a symptom of org bloat, not effective management.
  - leros 3y ago
    How did you find freelancing work?
bilsbie 3y ago
The stand up meetings make so much sense to me but when I’m in them they feel really worthless.
ipaddr 3y ago
Async stands are becoming popular. Post what you are working on in a slack thread.. I would suggest it. Another option is to schedule other meetings during that time with people from other teams. You could just stop going.
- hermanradtke 3y ago
  We use a weekly Google doc. I find Slack to be slightly too unstructured. Whatever the medium, I find async stand up to be very effective. We do have a stand up, but we spend almost the entire time discussing real issues. Not needed? Don’t show up.
vegetablepotpie 3y ago
Show up 15 minutes late and leave as soon as you give your status. This communicates that you’re a team player by showing up, but that you’re also very busy.
lexarflash8g 3y ago
Friday standups just don't work -- people want some day to do some tasks-- only hardcore engineers work that day which is probably norm at IT tech sweat shops
mxvanzant 3y ago
Hold a vote among participants to cancel daily stand-ups. Agile is supposed to be about doing what works for the team and my guess is the stand-ups aren't working for a majority! ;)
- interbased 3y ago
  This is what my team usually does. We just make a poll on Slack if we want changes to the process. Works like a charm for the most part.
- gardenhedge 3y ago
  The part that everyone forgets. The team is supposed to be empowered. These things shouldn't be forced on a team.
quickthrower2 3y ago
Propose to move them to midnight!
lostdog 3y ago
Yes, do put an "appointment" on your calendar. Apologize for not being able to make the standup, and then each week give a complete update in an email or slack message. In my experience, many people who are happily awake at 8:30am purposefully ignore the fact that other people have different sleep needs, and only a scheduling conflict can convince them to give you leeway. I have several coworkers who have "kid pickup/dropoff" on their calendars to enforce a hard start/end time, or even just "workout" or "commute." Having a vaguely unmoveable scheduling conflict is the only way to maintain a reasonable sleep schedule without a lot of pushback.
iamflimflam1 3y ago
Reading your post carefully, it looks like you are working on west coast and all your colleagues are on the east coast? For them the 8:30am meeting will be at a much more reasonable time. A lot of people are completely unaware of time zones and time differences so politely pointing out that 9:30 or 10:30 for them is actually 8:30 for you may be the best way to go. Especially if 8:30 is outside of your contracted hours.
- joezydeco 3y ago
  OP should schedule a meeting at 16:00 local and see what happens.
- TurkishPoptart 3y ago
  No, all west coast. Our team has 5 hours of daily meetings per week, most of which could be an email. Much of this time is just him reading a shared spreadsheet that we've all entered our daily focus into; so much wasted time.
  - iamflimflam1 3y ago
    I think you need to decided what the biggest problem is. Originally it was the need to make an early inconvenient meeting at 8:30. Now it seems more a general complaint about too many meetings. Pick the battle you want to fight. What hours are you contracted to work?

stocknoob 3y ago

The med-term strategy is to seek FI and never do a standup again.

quickthrower2 3y ago
Step 1: Profit Step 2: … Step 3: Profit
- stocknoob 3y ago
  That’s it, more or less: Step 1: profit (spend less than you earn) Step 2: invest the difference Step 3: profit (live off investment growth) https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/ https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-si...

cranberryturkey 3y ago

i worked at a startup that did them at 4pm localtime on thursdays only. it was awesome.

PaulHoule 3y ago
For my current and previous jobs we have a "standup" that involves posting a status update to Slack in the morning. I switched to writing my status update in the afternoon at the end of the day when: (1) what I was doing today was at my front of mind and easy to write down and (2) I usually have a pretty clear understanding of my plan for the next day. Instead of struggling the next morning to write down what I did, now I can look at last night's message in the morning to get a concise plan for the day and a hint to the immediate next step. (e.g. one thing I've gotten better at as I've gained experience is being able to "pack up" notes on what I am doing, go off and do something else, and then read the notes and resume the old project quickly.) I've never had any complaints about this in fact my boss thinks everyone in IT should write status updates as good as my own.

pavel_lishin 3y ago

> or to encourage our manager to change the schedule Is there a reason you haven't already tried this? I'm senior enough at our company, and work with a team that respects each other enough, that if someone suggested an 8:30am standup, I could tell them to have fun, and let me know how it went later, when I'm online. The only exception I can imagine is if we were working closely with a European team, I s'pose.

AnimalMuppet 3y ago
Someone tried to impose such a time on us. My boss said, "My people don't have to be here at that time." He set our standup at 9:50. So, yeah. If you can get your boss onboard, a lot of things become possible.
rhelz 3y ago
Senior enough that you can get away with this, but not so senior that you face age-related discrimination. Worked for me too as until my beard turned grey. After that, instead of assuming that you are a cracker-jack professional who refuses to do bullshit tasks, they assume you are an old dog who can't learn new tricks.
idontwantthis 3y ago
It also doesn’t have to be nearly as confrontational as this or the replies to this comment. Your team will probably treat you like a human being and move the meeting back an hour unless there is an important conflict.
paulcole 3y ago
How is the idea of telling someone that respectful in any way? You’re just laughing them off without considering it. It seems like what you meant is that you’re respected enough to get away with what you want to do, not that it’s as 2-way a street as you first said.

rhelz 3y ago

Once my 2nd-line boss complained to me that he had no idea what I was working on and why it seemed like nothing was getting done. I told him that every morning there is a stand-up meeting, which he attended, where his whole organization spends a collective man-day of work, while each of us give 5 to 10 minute updates on what we are working on, the obstacles we are facing, and what would need to be done to enable us to finish our tasks. What more could we be doing to inform him of what we were working on and what could be done to speed things up? Well, the daily meetings stopped, but I'm sure nobody will be surprised that the bastard fired me a few weeks later anyways.

syndicatedjelly 3y ago

Skip them a few times a week and provide a scheduled written update in Slack before the meeting. Just say something like “Sorry can’t make standup today, here’s my update” If someone makes a big enough stink about it then talk to them directly. You can also propose moving the standup later because it’s disruptive to have it before normal work hours. If it’s still a problem then maybe it’s time to find a new team.

nathants 3y ago

shift your working hours to 12-8, be open to changing jobs if it’s an issue.

raptorraver 3y ago

Honestly just tell them that the time of the meeting sucks and propose a better one. If they don't accept start looking for a new job.

tuckerpo 3y ago

I'm so glad I'm free from the chains of agile. Stand-ups at every company I've ever worked at asymptotically approached one of two things: 1) People pointing fingers around claiming everything is a "blocker" to mask their own inefficiencies causing a bunch of PMs and middle-managers to light everything on fire for the day because """blocker""" is such an inflammatory term, or 2) Everyone blitzes through with their report in one sentence just wanting to get back to their office and get actual work done, rendering the entire meeting useless In the past I've successfully moved an 8 AM to a 10 AM claiming something like "people need to refresh their brains as to what they did yesterday" or some other such nonsense. Give that a whirl.

kubanczyk 3y ago
> Everyone blitzes through with their report in one sentence just wanting to get back to their office and get actual work done, rendering the entire meeting useless I'd say the cause and effect is backwards. The useless meeting rendered the messages very terse.

xenopticon 3y ago

Freelancing fixes this. I have a no-recurring-meetings policy, all clients are informed upfront. I overcommunicate and post regular updates on Slack, etc. I had zero issues with this so far (e.g. a client dropped me because I refused daily standups). I've found that, once people have a clear idea of how much you cost per hour (not monthly or yearly), they tend to value your time more. My work calendar has been completely free for over 3 years now.

solardev 3y ago
Similarly, I quit my full time job last year because of too much "Agile" bullshit and useless meetings. There was a management change and my job went from being highly autonomous and very productive to micromanaged and bureaucratic, with nothing getting done anymore. I complained, they asked me for feedback, and I wrote them a detailed three-page report. They read it and told me to hide it to not embarrass management. I quit a few weeks later. Ended up doing hourly freelancing for a small company. Never had a single useless meeting. My reports are an occasional weekly summary of issues. The rest of the time I just have a timer going when I'm actually working and I bill accordingly. Extremely productive with no wasted hours on rituals and stupid ceremonies. I get paid less and don't get side perks like free lunches or company outings anymore, but I'm soooo much happier overall. It's like that old saying, people don't quit jobs, they quit their bosses. I would've stayed at my old org for half the pay and no silly perks if they just gave me a longer leash (and ideally a different boss) instead of making me jump through endless stupid hoops. I was one of their top performers, too, something like the 95th percentile or higher in performance reviews. I tried, telling different people all the way up to the VP of my branch how bad the situation was, but nobody listened. Their loss. Not long after, the CEO brought in completely new management again and laid off most of my peers. It was just a terribly managed org at the higher levels. In contrast, working for small companies, there's just not the luxury of paying for useless cruft and ceremonies to make middle management look important. That's a symptom of org bloat, not effective management.
- leros 3y ago
  How did you find freelancing work?

bilsbie 3y ago

The stand up meetings make so much sense to me but when I’m in them they feel really worthless.

ipaddr 3y ago

Async stands are becoming popular. Post what you are working on in a slack thread.. I would suggest it. Another option is to schedule other meetings during that time with people from other teams. You could just stop going.

hermanradtke 3y ago
We use a weekly Google doc. I find Slack to be slightly too unstructured. Whatever the medium, I find async stand up to be very effective. We do have a stand up, but we spend almost the entire time discussing real issues. Not needed? Don’t show up.

vegetablepotpie 3y ago

Show up 15 minutes late and leave as soon as you give your status. This communicates that you’re a team player by showing up, but that you’re also very busy.

lexarflash8g 3y ago

Friday standups just don't work -- people want some day to do some tasks-- only hardcore engineers work that day which is probably norm at IT tech sweat shops

mxvanzant 3y ago

Hold a vote among participants to cancel daily stand-ups. Agile is supposed to be about doing what works for the team and my guess is the stand-ups aren't working for a majority! ;)

interbased 3y ago
This is what my team usually does. We just make a poll on Slack if we want changes to the process. Works like a charm for the most part.
gardenhedge 3y ago
The part that everyone forgets. The team is supposed to be empowered. These things shouldn't be forced on a team.

quickthrower2 3y ago

Propose to move them to midnight!

lostdog 3y ago

Yes, do put an "appointment" on your calendar. Apologize for not being able to make the standup, and then each week give a complete update in an email or slack message. In my experience, many people who are happily awake at 8:30am purposefully ignore the fact that other people have different sleep needs, and only a scheduling conflict can convince them to give you leeway. I have several coworkers who have "kid pickup/dropoff" on their calendars to enforce a hard start/end time, or even just "workout" or "commute." Having a vaguely unmoveable scheduling conflict is the only way to maintain a reasonable sleep schedule without a lot of pushback.

iamflimflam1 3y ago

Reading your post carefully, it looks like you are working on west coast and all your colleagues are on the east coast? For them the 8:30am meeting will be at a much more reasonable time. A lot of people are completely unaware of time zones and time differences so politely pointing out that 9:30 or 10:30 for them is actually 8:30 for you may be the best way to go. Especially if 8:30 is outside of your contracted hours.

joezydeco 3y ago
OP should schedule a meeting at 16:00 local and see what happens.
TurkishPoptart 3y ago
No, all west coast. Our team has 5 hours of daily meetings per week, most of which could be an email. Much of this time is just him reading a shared spreadsheet that we've all entered our daily focus into; so much wasted time.
- iamflimflam1 3y ago
  I think you need to decided what the biggest problem is. Originally it was the need to make an early inconvenient meeting at 8:30. Now it seems more a general complaint about too many meetings. Pick the battle you want to fight. What hours are you contracted to work?