5 ms·

It's a big step and still a compromise. Let's see how this whole non-commercial approach works out. I know some people who don't want to get into growing and do

by brodo 3y ago

It's a big step and still a compromise. Let's see how this whole non-commercial approach works out. I know some people who don't want to get into growing and don't want to join a club.

dorvak 3y ago
This is actually a smaller step, as it needs to be approved by the Bundesrat before being effective. This could take month and it’s not guaranteed to pass.
- brodo 3y ago
  The 180,000 people per year who will not face legal issues because of this law will disagree on how big a step this is.
  - weinzierl 3y ago
    Do you think these 180 000 people will be able or willing to join a club? With a mandatory membership fee and legally mandated minimum membership period of three months? As these clubs are not allowed to hire people and are also forbidden to allow non-members to act on club duties, a membership will mean some work too. How many of the 180 000 are willing to put in that effort.
    - muldvarp 3y ago
      It doesn't matter whether or not they will join a club. It matters that simply owning (a non-negligible amount of) cannabis is no longer illegal.
- TillE 3y ago
  > it needs to be approved by the Bundesrat Apparently it doesn't. "Nach der Zustimmung des Bundestags kommt das Gesetz am 22. März abschließend in den Bundesrat. Zustimmungsbedürftig ist es dort nicht, die Länderkammer kann aber den Vermittlungsausschuss anrufen und die Legalisierung so verzögern." https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/bundestag-livestream-cannabis-legalisierung-1.6388554 https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/bundestag-livestream-can... They can't veto it, but they could delay it.
lqet 3y ago
Exactly, this is what I don't buy in the "black market will get extremely unattractive" argument. The status quo is to buy illegally (but with very low risk for the buyer, and usually excellent anonymity) from established dealers, often people with a lot of knowledge in growing/processing. The new legal approach would be to either grow yourself, or join a club [0]. I don't consume cannabis, but if I would have to choose between joining a state-registered alcohol club, brewing my own beer, growing my own grapes, or just buying a bottle of wine illegally now and then from someone who has expertise in making it (and with nearly all risk on the seller side), I would definitely opt for the latter. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_Social_Club https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_Social_Club
- Abroszka 3y ago
  The main benefit comes from knowing what you have if you grow it vs. buying something that looks like weed from the guy on the street. Also growing it is super easy. If you can grow tomatoes then you are already overqualified.
  - ivirshup 3y ago
    Most Germans live in apartments, and rent. The growing and processing does produce strong odors, which a landlord/ neighbors may not approve of.
    - rob74 3y ago
      The smoking also produces strong odors, which (as a neighbor) I do not approve of, so I'm not sure if adding the odors from growing and processing to that will make the situation much worse?
      - monocasa 3y ago
        The growing smells are much more pungent.
      - ivirshup 3y ago
diggan 3y ago
> don't want to join a club. What would be the reason for not wanting to join a club? Seems like a pretty OK solution between "it's totally illegal" and "the state store sells it", with some safe guards but still let non-profits organize the work and community. FWIW, we have "social clubs" here in Spain, where it's neither illegal/legal on a national level, and it seems to be working out OK as far as I know.
- weinzierl 3y ago
  Anonymity! Do you want to be a state registered drug user? The clubs have to be registered and need a license. They need to keep a register of members. It is not in the law that they need to give this register to the authorities, but it is still a risk. EDIT: I looked up the details. The clubs need to keep track of every sale, including data about the buyer. They have to report this to the authorities twice a year in anonymized form.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - Whooping7116 3y ago
    [dead]
  - eqvinox 3y ago
    The anonymized form is only for the "automatic" reports without anyone asking. The authority can request — §26(2) — the data (= non-anonymized) at any point based on without any requirement for a specific reason. That said, "the authority" is not necessarily the police or public prosecutor; the determination who does this is left to the federal state (who might make it the police/prosecutor, or not…) — presumably if they're not "the authority" themselves, they would have to ask "the authority" to forward it.
  - tetha 3y ago
    > The clubs have to be registered and need a license. They need to keep a register of members. It is not in the law that they need to give this register to the authorities, but it is still a risk. I very much recall how long the promise of "Covid Guest Lists are not used by the police" lasted.
eqvinox 3y ago
> "die kontrollierte Weitergabe von Cannabis durch Anbauvereinigungen" This does not sound like you have to "join a club", you just have to buy directly from a club. (… reading actual text now to check …) Nope, nevermind… §1 Abs. 13: "Anbauvereinigungen: […] deren Zweck der gemeinschaftliche nichtgewerbliche Eigenanbau und die Weitergabe von Cannabis zum Eigenkonsum durch und an Mitglieder sowie die Weitergabe von Vermehrungsmaterial ist." ⇒ you either have to grow it yourself or be a member of an association that grows it; can't buy directly from a club if you're not a member.
- lqet 3y ago
  > "... dürfen nichtgewerbliche Anbauvereinigungen Cannabis künftig anbauen und an ihre Mitglieder zum Eigenkonsum weitergeben." Free translation: non-commercial clubs can grow cannabis and hand it out in small amounts to registered members
- wuiheerfoj 3y ago
  In Spain this amounts to paying 10EUR to join a club then you can buy at your leisure. Seems like a fairly low barrier. The data maintenance stuff is a bit more concerning, but I imagine once cannabis is embedded in the country the reporting will disappear in a round of cuts to gov spending
  - weinzierl 3y ago
    The German clubs are not allowed to sell or gift. Members pay a membership fee and are in return allowed to share the crop of their three allowed plants with other members.
    - diggan 3y ago
      This is basically how it works in Spain as well, you don't use the words "buy" or "sell", but you contribute financially to the club treasury and you may withdraw that deposit in suitable amount of weed. You don't hand over cash to the person behind the counter, as an example. You're not there to "purchase", but the effect is the same.

by brodo 3y ago

It's a big step and still a compromise. Let's see how this whole non-commercial approach works out. I know some people who don't want to get into growing and don't want to join a club.

dorvak 3y ago

This is actually a smaller step, as it needs to be approved by the Bundesrat before being effective. This could take month and it’s not guaranteed to pass.

brodo 3y ago
The 180,000 people per year who will not face legal issues because of this law will disagree on how big a step this is.
- weinzierl 3y ago
  Do you think these 180 000 people will be able or willing to join a club? With a mandatory membership fee and legally mandated minimum membership period of three months? As these clubs are not allowed to hire people and are also forbidden to allow non-members to act on club duties, a membership will mean some work too. How many of the 180 000 are willing to put in that effort.
  - muldvarp 3y ago
    It doesn't matter whether or not they will join a club. It matters that simply owning (a non-negligible amount of) cannabis is no longer illegal.
TillE 3y ago
> it needs to be approved by the Bundesrat Apparently it doesn't. "Nach der Zustimmung des Bundestags kommt das Gesetz am 22. März abschließend in den Bundesrat. Zustimmungsbedürftig ist es dort nicht, die Länderkammer kann aber den Vermittlungsausschuss anrufen und die Legalisierung so verzögern." https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/bundestag-livestream-cannabis-legalisierung-1.6388554 https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/bundestag-livestream-can... They can't veto it, but they could delay it.

lqet 3y ago

Exactly, this is what I don't buy in the "black market will get extremely unattractive" argument. The status quo is to buy illegally (but with very low risk for the buyer, and usually excellent anonymity) from established dealers, often people with a lot of knowledge in growing/processing. The new legal approach would be to either grow yourself, or join a club [0]. I don't consume cannabis, but if I would have to choose between joining a state-registered alcohol club, brewing my own beer, growing my own grapes, or just buying a bottle of wine illegally now and then from someone who has expertise in making it (and with nearly all risk on the seller side), I would definitely opt for the latter. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_Social_Club https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_Social_Club

Abroszka 3y ago
The main benefit comes from knowing what you have if you grow it vs. buying something that looks like weed from the guy on the street. Also growing it is super easy. If you can grow tomatoes then you are already overqualified.
- ivirshup 3y ago
  Most Germans live in apartments, and rent. The growing and processing does produce strong odors, which a landlord/ neighbors may not approve of.
  - rob74 3y ago
    The smoking also produces strong odors, which (as a neighbor) I do not approve of, so I'm not sure if adding the odors from growing and processing to that will make the situation much worse?
    - monocasa 3y ago
      The growing smells are much more pungent.
    - ivirshup 3y ago

diggan 3y ago

> don't want to join a club. What would be the reason for not wanting to join a club? Seems like a pretty OK solution between "it's totally illegal" and "the state store sells it", with some safe guards but still let non-profits organize the work and community. FWIW, we have "social clubs" here in Spain, where it's neither illegal/legal on a national level, and it seems to be working out OK as far as I know.

weinzierl 3y ago
Anonymity! Do you want to be a state registered drug user? The clubs have to be registered and need a license. They need to keep a register of members. It is not in the law that they need to give this register to the authorities, but it is still a risk. EDIT: I looked up the details. The clubs need to keep track of every sale, including data about the buyer. They have to report this to the authorities twice a year in anonymized form.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Whooping7116 3y ago
  [dead]
- eqvinox 3y ago
  The anonymized form is only for the "automatic" reports without anyone asking. The authority can request — §26(2) — the data (= non-anonymized) at any point based on without any requirement for a specific reason. That said, "the authority" is not necessarily the police or public prosecutor; the determination who does this is left to the federal state (who might make it the police/prosecutor, or not…) — presumably if they're not "the authority" themselves, they would have to ask "the authority" to forward it.
- tetha 3y ago
  > The clubs have to be registered and need a license. They need to keep a register of members. It is not in the law that they need to give this register to the authorities, but it is still a risk. I very much recall how long the promise of "Covid Guest Lists are not used by the police" lasted.

eqvinox 3y ago

> "die kontrollierte Weitergabe von Cannabis durch Anbauvereinigungen" This does not sound like you have to "join a club", you just have to buy directly from a club. (… reading actual text now to check …) Nope, nevermind… §1 Abs. 13: "Anbauvereinigungen: […] deren Zweck der gemeinschaftliche nichtgewerbliche Eigenanbau und die Weitergabe von Cannabis zum Eigenkonsum durch und an Mitglieder sowie die Weitergabe von Vermehrungsmaterial ist." ⇒ you either have to grow it yourself or be a member of an association that grows it; can't buy directly from a club if you're not a member.

lqet 3y ago
> "... dürfen nichtgewerbliche Anbauvereinigungen Cannabis künftig anbauen und an ihre Mitglieder zum Eigenkonsum weitergeben." Free translation: non-commercial clubs can grow cannabis and hand it out in small amounts to registered members
wuiheerfoj 3y ago
In Spain this amounts to paying 10EUR to join a club then you can buy at your leisure. Seems like a fairly low barrier. The data maintenance stuff is a bit more concerning, but I imagine once cannabis is embedded in the country the reporting will disappear in a round of cuts to gov spending
- weinzierl 3y ago
  The German clubs are not allowed to sell or gift. Members pay a membership fee and are in return allowed to share the crop of their three allowed plants with other members.
  - diggan 3y ago
    This is basically how it works in Spain as well, you don't use the words "buy" or "sell", but you contribute financially to the club treasury and you may withdraw that deposit in suitable amount of weed. You don't hand over cash to the person behind the counter, as an example. You're not there to "purchase", but the effect is the same.