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I've truly never worked a job in my life where I would not be fired for sending a message to all my coworkers about how a particular group of employees are less

I've truly never worked a job in my life where I would not be fired for sending a message to all my coworkers about how a particular group of employees are less likely to be as proficient at their work as I am due to some immutable biological trait(s) they possess, whether it be construction/pipefitting or software engineering. It's bad for business, productivity, and incredibly socially maladaptive behavior, let alone how clearly it calls into question his ability to fairly assess the performance of female employees working under him.

xepriot 3y ago
This is dishonest. what is the point of this comment? Do you feel righteously woke when you write it? He was pushing back against a communist narrative that: every single demographic gruop should be equally represented in every part of tech; and that if this isn't the case, then it's evidence of racism/sexism/some other modern sin. Again what was the point of portraying the Damore story like that.
- magnoliakobus 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - smsm42 3y ago
    No, it's literally just a bunch of lies, which you probably picked up from some fourth-party retelling of the story. Damore sent it as a part of a specific conversation on specific topic, in place specially designated to hold such conversations. And his opponents distributed it with the purpose of silencing him because they disliked what he had to say. It wasn't a "manifesto", it was a document meant for internal discussion, on internal discussion forum, which has been seized and distributed in public by the opponents instead of trying to argue any opposing points. > I'm sorry you don't get it but most people wouldn't want to work with such a socially maladapted person who could compile all this research By "most people" you mean "myself and a couple of my friends who I didn't even ask but I am sure I know what they think because we all think the same". Actually, working with a person who bothers to support his opinions with well argued, well searched and well presented research, instead of running to the press crying "witches! there are witches here! burn them all!" is a very pleasant and productive thing. Even if you disagree with such person, at least you can have a civilized discussion, understand and appreciate their arguments and eventually hopefully find common solutions, and you have a reason to expect they'd behave in the same reasonable, professional and civilized manner. On the contrary, working with somebody who would each time you do something they don't like leak it to the hostile press who would sensationalize it and coordinate personal attacks on you would be a complete nightmare.
  - EnigmaFlare 3y ago
    You value social conformity too highly. No reform can happen if nobody dissents. I guess you're implying that he should have done so by gaining political power first, then exercising that power to share or implement his ideas in a way which would no longer be socially maladaptive because his respected status would give it more perceived value. Probably that would be more successful, but it's not bad for an individual suggest novel ways of working towards the company's stated goals. I'm sure if you lived in a very religious society, you'd have the same condemnation of anyone who openly questions the Bible. Your concern isn't that he was wrong but that he shouldn't have said things people clearly didn't want to hear. Social conformity is pretty useful at keeping people working cohesively and effectively, but it can go astray and we need people brave enough to fight against it when that happens. > things they clearly believe I think this what angered people the most. What he actually wrote was reasonable and factually accurate, however, others who were also socially inept but in a more typical way read between the lines and imagined some other unstated bad ideas must be in his mind. Back when this happened a lot of people were making angry posts about these imagined ideas rather than what he actually wrote. He must believe women are incapable of working in tech, inferior, etc.
logicalmonster 3y ago
> how a particular group of employees are less likely to be as proficient at their work as I am due to some immutable biological trait(s) they possess Is that what Damore actually said? That's not my recollection. I think his main point was that due to differences in biology, that women had more extraversion, openness, and neuroticism (big 5 traits) and that women were less likely to want to get into computer stuff. That's a very far cry from him saying something like "women suck at computers" and seems very dishonest to suggest.
- davidguetta 3y ago
  - I think his main point was that due to differences in biology, that women had more extraversion, openness, and neuroticism (big 5 traits) and that women were less likely to want to get into computer stuff. I'm generally anti-woke and it was more than that. It's not just 'less likely' it was also 'less suited'
  - logicalmonster 3y ago
    It would be helpful if you can post such a citation. I did a quick search and I'm not seeing "less suited" in his memo.
    - davidguetta 3y ago
      "women have more interest people to things so to improve their situation we should increase pair-programming, however there are limits to how people oriented some SE roles are". This is literally saying we should change SWE roles to make it more suited to women... i.e. women are not suited for that currently.
      - swatcoder 3y ago
        But that's not talking about suitability to architect solutions or write code, it's talking about the surrounding process infrastructure and making it more approachable to people so that people who are suited to software engineering have a space where they can deliver on it. When businessses moved towards open offices, this infrastructure change made SWE roles more approachable for extroverts and opened the doors of the trade to people not suited to the solitude of private offices. Extroverts and verbally collaborative people love open offices and often thrive in them. That doesn't imply that extroverts weren't suited to writing software. It just affirms the obvious fact that some enviornments are more inviting to certain people, and that being considerate of those things can make more work available to more people.
paulddraper 3y ago
> sending a message to all my coworkers Damore didn't send anything to all coworkers. He sent a detailed message as part of a very specific conversation with a very specific group on demographic statistics at Google and their causes. In fact, it was Damore's detractors that published it widely. If it the crime was distribution, and not thoughtcrime, wouldn't they be fired? --- Now, maybe that's not a conversation that should have existed in a workplace in the first place. I'd buy that. But's it's profoundly disingenuous for a company to deliberately invite/host a discussion, then fire anyone with a contrary opinion.
- Viliam1234 3y ago
  If a company invites you to a discussion, it means you are invited to listen (and politely applaud when appropriate).
- sanity 3y ago
  > Now, maybe that's not a conversation that should have existed in a workplace in the first place. I'd buy that. But's it's profoundly disingenuous for a company to deliberately invite/host a discussion, then fire anyone with a contrary opinion. Damore was asked for his feedback by his employer, he didn't offer it unsolicited.

xepriot 3y ago

This is dishonest. what is the point of this comment? Do you feel righteously woke when you write it? He was pushing back against a communist narrative that: every single demographic gruop should be equally represented in every part of tech; and that if this isn't the case, then it's evidence of racism/sexism/some other modern sin. Again what was the point of portraying the Damore story like that.

magnoliakobus 3y ago
[flagged]
- smsm42 3y ago
  No, it's literally just a bunch of lies, which you probably picked up from some fourth-party retelling of the story. Damore sent it as a part of a specific conversation on specific topic, in place specially designated to hold such conversations. And his opponents distributed it with the purpose of silencing him because they disliked what he had to say. It wasn't a "manifesto", it was a document meant for internal discussion, on internal discussion forum, which has been seized and distributed in public by the opponents instead of trying to argue any opposing points. > I'm sorry you don't get it but most people wouldn't want to work with such a socially maladapted person who could compile all this research By "most people" you mean "myself and a couple of my friends who I didn't even ask but I am sure I know what they think because we all think the same". Actually, working with a person who bothers to support his opinions with well argued, well searched and well presented research, instead of running to the press crying "witches! there are witches here! burn them all!" is a very pleasant and productive thing. Even if you disagree with such person, at least you can have a civilized discussion, understand and appreciate their arguments and eventually hopefully find common solutions, and you have a reason to expect they'd behave in the same reasonable, professional and civilized manner. On the contrary, working with somebody who would each time you do something they don't like leak it to the hostile press who would sensationalize it and coordinate personal attacks on you would be a complete nightmare.
- EnigmaFlare 3y ago
  You value social conformity too highly. No reform can happen if nobody dissents. I guess you're implying that he should have done so by gaining political power first, then exercising that power to share or implement his ideas in a way which would no longer be socially maladaptive because his respected status would give it more perceived value. Probably that would be more successful, but it's not bad for an individual suggest novel ways of working towards the company's stated goals. I'm sure if you lived in a very religious society, you'd have the same condemnation of anyone who openly questions the Bible. Your concern isn't that he was wrong but that he shouldn't have said things people clearly didn't want to hear. Social conformity is pretty useful at keeping people working cohesively and effectively, but it can go astray and we need people brave enough to fight against it when that happens. > things they clearly believe I think this what angered people the most. What he actually wrote was reasonable and factually accurate, however, others who were also socially inept but in a more typical way read between the lines and imagined some other unstated bad ideas must be in his mind. Back when this happened a lot of people were making angry posts about these imagined ideas rather than what he actually wrote. He must believe women are incapable of working in tech, inferior, etc.

logicalmonster 3y ago

> how a particular group of employees are less likely to be as proficient at their work as I am due to some immutable biological trait(s) they possess Is that what Damore actually said? That's not my recollection. I think his main point was that due to differences in biology, that women had more extraversion, openness, and neuroticism (big 5 traits) and that women were less likely to want to get into computer stuff. That's a very far cry from him saying something like "women suck at computers" and seems very dishonest to suggest.

davidguetta 3y ago
- I think his main point was that due to differences in biology, that women had more extraversion, openness, and neuroticism (big 5 traits) and that women were less likely to want to get into computer stuff. I'm generally anti-woke and it was more than that. It's not just 'less likely' it was also 'less suited'
- logicalmonster 3y ago
  It would be helpful if you can post such a citation. I did a quick search and I'm not seeing "less suited" in his memo.
  - davidguetta 3y ago
    "women have more interest people to things so to improve their situation we should increase pair-programming, however there are limits to how people oriented some SE roles are". This is literally saying we should change SWE roles to make it more suited to women... i.e. women are not suited for that currently.
    - swatcoder 3y ago
      But that's not talking about suitability to architect solutions or write code, it's talking about the surrounding process infrastructure and making it more approachable to people so that people who are suited to software engineering have a space where they can deliver on it. When businessses moved towards open offices, this infrastructure change made SWE roles more approachable for extroverts and opened the doors of the trade to people not suited to the solitude of private offices. Extroverts and verbally collaborative people love open offices and often thrive in them. That doesn't imply that extroverts weren't suited to writing software. It just affirms the obvious fact that some enviornments are more inviting to certain people, and that being considerate of those things can make more work available to more people.

paulddraper 3y ago

> sending a message to all my coworkers Damore didn't send anything to all coworkers. He sent a detailed message as part of a very specific conversation with a very specific group on demographic statistics at Google and their causes. In fact, it was Damore's detractors that published it widely. If it the crime was distribution, and not thoughtcrime, wouldn't they be fired? --- Now, maybe that's not a conversation that should have existed in a workplace in the first place. I'd buy that. But's it's profoundly disingenuous for a company to deliberately invite/host a discussion, then fire anyone with a contrary opinion.

Viliam1234 3y ago
If a company invites you to a discussion, it means you are invited to listen (and politely applaud when appropriate).
sanity 3y ago
> Now, maybe that's not a conversation that should have existed in a workplace in the first place. I'd buy that. But's it's profoundly disingenuous for a company to deliberately invite/host a discussion, then fire anyone with a contrary opinion. Damore was asked for his feedback by his employer, he didn't offer it unsolicited.