5 ms·

I like the simplicity and map-centric focus of this. It leads me to wonder... why can't early education work like this? History classes were always sloooow, loo

I like the simplicity and map-centric focus of this. It leads me to wonder... why can't early education work like this? History classes were always sloooow, looong death marches through bland facts where, as a child, big picture context is rarely established. You're just being dragged through a forest, one tree after another, rather than getting a helicopter bird's eye view of it first. Since history is an easy example, imagine if each week of class for a given subject started with a fun, grokkable, bite-sized overview like this, with key milestones+landmarks+maps+visual devices laid clear. You get a full story quickly, and then the teacher can spend the next few classes rewinding to go a little deeper on each major topic. Then, students can pick from <1 of N> ancillary/related topics in that "big idea" to explore on their own and come up with a little presentation of their own in class. Tangent, but I just wish modern education could see the value in modern content and reverse engineer more interesting lesson plans from it.

Swizec 3y ago
FWIW my middle school history classroom 20 years ago (gasp when did that happen) probably had more maps hanging on the walls than the geography classroom. We had maps for every historical period we learned about. It was pretty neat. It still took me well into my 20’s to realize that history happens in parallel and all those ancient civilizations were just countries existing next to each other. They didn’t come one after another in a steady succession or anything like that. Do kids these days not get maps and stories anymore?
- BobbyTables2 3y ago
  No, they only get a few website links and jazzed up flash-card style online games. Books, maps, and chalkboards are a thing of the past…
ghaff 3y ago
Probably because memorizing/regurgitating facts/data was straightforward and easy to quantify performance. (And was arguably more important in the absence of the Web and Google.)
- jwells89 3y ago
  As a result of this, memorization is also what does well on standardized testing, and guess what’s prioritized above all else in the modern US school system? Test scores. Little else matters to schools so long as students are getting good enough test scores. This isn’t very conducive to quality education, unfortunately.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    I'm not sure there's a great answer. The situation before school systems were forced to quantify performance as much wasn't perfect either. And there's a lot to suggest that standardized testing for college admissions improves equity rather than the other way around.
yieldcrv 3y ago
> You're just being dragged through a forest, one tree after another, rather than getting a helicopter bird's eye view of it first. Because the adults don't have consensus over the big picture. Think about modern events, if you said something about the resolution of a political outcome that either hasn't reached an outcome or it happened over the last 2 years, you are invalidating half of the population and invalidating yourself from it too. And I’m not just talking about elections, I’m referring to territories and everything. And the reality is that there is almost never a decisive outcome about that resolves the conflict. A bigger conflict happens and prior grievances are put to the way side. The people don't feel that way. I routinely meet people that say they’re from Mexico, but are referring to a long established city in California that Mexico lost 170 years ago. And I ask some of my Mexican friends about that person and some invalidate their activism and others agree. Never saw that before living in California. so, talking about some events that occurred is safer than saying the outcome. the book doesn't get rewritten over and over again, just a safe way of teaching something gains consensus. How many parents complained, oh zero, I guess we’re good now.
- ghaff 3y ago
  There's some truth to that. It's a lot more straightforward to have kids memorize the names of Kings and the dates of long-ago battles than to delve into colonial policies of the British Empire or how the US has justified its various wars.
- Swizec 3y ago
  > And the reality is that there is almost never a decisive outcome about that resolves the conflict. A bigger conflict happens and prior grievances are put to the way side. The people don't feel that way. > I routinely meet people that say they’re from Mexico, but are referring to a long established city in California that Mexico lost 170 years ago. And I ask some of my Mexican friends about that person and some invalidate their activism and others agree. Never saw that before living in California. /me laughs in European My country used to be Celtic. Then it was Roman. Then for a little bit it was a country. Then it was Frankish. Then Holy Roman. Then a little bit Italian and a lot Austrian. Then French for a while. At some point the Ottomans invaded the whole thing and didn’t really hold on, but that’s how Europe got croissants and coffee. The 20th century was fun, we were ~6 different countries in 100 years if you don’t count the war occupations … The kids can handle history. It’s ok.
shermantanktop 3y ago
Maybe you have a better vision for education, but so do a lot of other people. And yet edtech startups crash and burn over and over and over. There’s something intractable about solving problems that are so deeply entangled in society and culture, and yet everyone seems to have a first-thought idea that seems appealing.
- Solvency 3y ago
  What I'm suggesting doesn't require a startup, just better media assets for teachers to be effective rather than JUST massive textbooks and antiquated approaches to curriculums.
  - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
    Unfortunately, someone has to produce those better media assets. And the people who can do a good job of that mostly don't work for free. So it may not require a startup, but it does require something - some company, or nonprofit, or government agency.
  - shermantanktop 3y ago
    Right, understand you weren't suggesting a complete overhaul of all of education. But even a textbook change is a huge change. Right now we have a Florida state law resulting in dictionaries getting pulled from school libraries. Texas schoolboards effectively make textbook and curriculum decisions for the rest of the US. Education is a political football in the US, and always has been, but especially now. In other parts of the world, it varies - but you can bet that Turkish textbooks don't cover what happened in 1915 in the same way that a Greek textbook might. And so the status quo is very difficult to change.
steve1977 3y ago
> why can't early education work like this? Early education is not really about education but about ensuring that ideally both parents can work (again) and hence produce taxes and increase rent.
- throwway120385 3y ago
  It was originally also about making sure that a 13 year old was equipped with some basic skills and knowledge that would help them successfully navigate society, such as reading, writing, and arithmetic. Literacy and numeracy are key to an organized society, which also produces taxes and increased rent.
CoastalCoder 3y ago
Reminds me of a quip I heard once [0] : (sigh) "History is just one damn thing after another." [0] Recounted by Maurice Herlihy. Well known for his contributions to computer science, but under-recognized for his gentle sense of humor.
reducesuffering 3y ago
FWIW I remember literally making a physical map of CA elevation like this in primary school. Only went to a middle of the pack school in CA too.
- Solvency 3y ago
  Growing up in NJ during my day you spent the first 12 years learning about how amazing pilgrims and Christopher Colombus were, over and over again, until suddenly you hit highschool and the teachers go "lol jk".
eszed 3y ago
You'd be interested in Annales historiography: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annales_school https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annales_school
panick21_ 3y ago
A good teacher can already do that. Nothing is stopping it. There are books like 'Historical Atlas' that shows lots of maps threw world history. This what my school actually did have as the main book. But its also pretty challenging as going threw specific periods is part of what you have to teach.

Swizec 3y ago

FWIW my middle school history classroom 20 years ago (gasp when did that happen) probably had more maps hanging on the walls than the geography classroom. We had maps for every historical period we learned about. It was pretty neat. It still took me well into my 20’s to realize that history happens in parallel and all those ancient civilizations were just countries existing next to each other. They didn’t come one after another in a steady succession or anything like that. Do kids these days not get maps and stories anymore?

BobbyTables2 3y ago
No, they only get a few website links and jazzed up flash-card style online games. Books, maps, and chalkboards are a thing of the past…

ghaff 3y ago

Probably because memorizing/regurgitating facts/data was straightforward and easy to quantify performance. (And was arguably more important in the absence of the Web and Google.)

jwells89 3y ago
As a result of this, memorization is also what does well on standardized testing, and guess what’s prioritized above all else in the modern US school system? Test scores. Little else matters to schools so long as students are getting good enough test scores. This isn’t very conducive to quality education, unfortunately.
- ghaff 3y ago
  I'm not sure there's a great answer. The situation before school systems were forced to quantify performance as much wasn't perfect either. And there's a lot to suggest that standardized testing for college admissions improves equity rather than the other way around.

yieldcrv 3y ago

> You're just being dragged through a forest, one tree after another, rather than getting a helicopter bird's eye view of it first. Because the adults don't have consensus over the big picture. Think about modern events, if you said something about the resolution of a political outcome that either hasn't reached an outcome or it happened over the last 2 years, you are invalidating half of the population and invalidating yourself from it too. And I’m not just talking about elections, I’m referring to territories and everything. And the reality is that there is almost never a decisive outcome about that resolves the conflict. A bigger conflict happens and prior grievances are put to the way side. The people don't feel that way. I routinely meet people that say they’re from Mexico, but are referring to a long established city in California that Mexico lost 170 years ago. And I ask some of my Mexican friends about that person and some invalidate their activism and others agree. Never saw that before living in California. so, talking about some events that occurred is safer than saying the outcome. the book doesn't get rewritten over and over again, just a safe way of teaching something gains consensus. How many parents complained, oh zero, I guess we’re good now.

ghaff 3y ago
There's some truth to that. It's a lot more straightforward to have kids memorize the names of Kings and the dates of long-ago battles than to delve into colonial policies of the British Empire or how the US has justified its various wars.
Swizec 3y ago
> And the reality is that there is almost never a decisive outcome about that resolves the conflict. A bigger conflict happens and prior grievances are put to the way side. The people don't feel that way. > I routinely meet people that say they’re from Mexico, but are referring to a long established city in California that Mexico lost 170 years ago. And I ask some of my Mexican friends about that person and some invalidate their activism and others agree. Never saw that before living in California. /me laughs in European My country used to be Celtic. Then it was Roman. Then for a little bit it was a country. Then it was Frankish. Then Holy Roman. Then a little bit Italian and a lot Austrian. Then French for a while. At some point the Ottomans invaded the whole thing and didn’t really hold on, but that’s how Europe got croissants and coffee. The 20th century was fun, we were ~6 different countries in 100 years if you don’t count the war occupations … The kids can handle history. It’s ok.

shermantanktop 3y ago

Maybe you have a better vision for education, but so do a lot of other people. And yet edtech startups crash and burn over and over and over. There’s something intractable about solving problems that are so deeply entangled in society and culture, and yet everyone seems to have a first-thought idea that seems appealing.

Solvency 3y ago
What I'm suggesting doesn't require a startup, just better media assets for teachers to be effective rather than JUST massive textbooks and antiquated approaches to curriculums.
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  Unfortunately, someone has to produce those better media assets. And the people who can do a good job of that mostly don't work for free. So it may not require a startup, but it does require something - some company, or nonprofit, or government agency.
- shermantanktop 3y ago
  Right, understand you weren't suggesting a complete overhaul of all of education. But even a textbook change is a huge change. Right now we have a Florida state law resulting in dictionaries getting pulled from school libraries. Texas schoolboards effectively make textbook and curriculum decisions for the rest of the US. Education is a political football in the US, and always has been, but especially now. In other parts of the world, it varies - but you can bet that Turkish textbooks don't cover what happened in 1915 in the same way that a Greek textbook might. And so the status quo is very difficult to change.

steve1977 3y ago

> why can't early education work like this? Early education is not really about education but about ensuring that ideally both parents can work (again) and hence produce taxes and increase rent.

throwway120385 3y ago
It was originally also about making sure that a 13 year old was equipped with some basic skills and knowledge that would help them successfully navigate society, such as reading, writing, and arithmetic. Literacy and numeracy are key to an organized society, which also produces taxes and increased rent.

CoastalCoder 3y ago

Reminds me of a quip I heard once [0] : (sigh) "History is just one damn thing after another." [0] Recounted by Maurice Herlihy. Well known for his contributions to computer science, but under-recognized for his gentle sense of humor.

reducesuffering 3y ago

FWIW I remember literally making a physical map of CA elevation like this in primary school. Only went to a middle of the pack school in CA too.

Solvency 3y ago
Growing up in NJ during my day you spent the first 12 years learning about how amazing pilgrims and Christopher Colombus were, over and over again, until suddenly you hit highschool and the teachers go "lol jk".

eszed 3y ago

You'd be interested in Annales historiography: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annales_school https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annales_school

panick21_ 3y ago

A good teacher can already do that. Nothing is stopping it. There are books like 'Historical Atlas' that shows lots of maps threw world history. This what my school actually did have as the main book. But its also pretty challenging as going threw specific periods is part of what you have to teach.