6 ms·

Tik-Tok-inspired Kia thefts weren't a problem in Canada because they've required immobilizers since 2007, something Kia skimped on for the US market.

alexb_ 3y ago
[flagged]
- eptcyka 3y ago
  Nominally, you are correct, but if we can collectively make decisions that decrease the risk of theft, is it not immoral bot to take action?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- franga2000 3y ago
  The manufacturer is not the victim here, the buyer is. If I pay a contractor to install a new door and lock on my apartment and it turns out they did a terrible job which made it trivial for a thief to break in, the contractor should be liable. Crime exists, this is the world we live in. Failing to implement even the most basic security measure, which is considered industry standard, in a high-value product that is known to be very attractive to thieves and then selling that product to consumers with no warning that "unlike most other cars on the market, which have many layers of security features, this car can be stolen using a cheap toy" makes the inevitable thefts absolutely Kia's fault. It's not like people are saying the thieves did nothing wrong, both sides are at fault: the thieves stole people's cars to enrich themselves and Kia secretly omitted a basic security feature which in turn enabled thousands of fully predictable and preventable thefts from their customers, again, to enrich themselves.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    > Failing to implement even the most basic security measure, which is considered industry standard, in a high-value product that is known to be very attractive to thieves and then selling that product to consumers with no warning that "unlike most other cars on the market, which have many layers of security features, this car can be stolen using a cheap toy" makes the inevitable thefts absolutely Kia's fault. I don't think this logic works. If you buy a classic vehicle, they don't have these kinds of things either. People make replicas that likewise don't. And there is no clear line here. Basically any car can be stolen by, if nothing else, replacing the car's computer with one that accepts the thief's key. Meanwhile a car is a large purchase where people can reasonably be expected to do some research. If you're about to buy a car you should read some reviews, and the reviewers should tell you if their security is bad. Then you know and can make your decision. People who learn of this may want to buy a different car, or take some other countermeasures if they buy this one. Kia doesn't have any kind of a monopoly in this market. There are many other carmakers. Maybe you don't care that their security is bad because you always park your car in a garage. Maybe you like the discount you got because other buyers wanted a car with better security. Why does it have to be illegal, instead of letting the market sort it out in the presence of actual competition?
    - filoleg 3y ago
      > If you buy a classic vehicle, they don't have these kinds of things either Not a good analogy, because buying a classic vehicle automatically waives a bunch of safety and other features that are not only expected in modern day, they are straight up legally required. A car manufacturer cannot remake a classic vehicle from the 80s and release it in the US in 2024. Or, probably, EU too, I cannot speak for that due to my unfamiliarity with vehicle laws there, but afaik they are more strict than the US. It would be just illegal to sell that car. Thin pillars that won’t pass any modern safety tests, no backup camera (which makes it illegal to sell as a new car in the US), not enoug crumple zones, etc.
      - eep_social 3y ago
        The standard dodge in the US is to sell “kit cars” which require the buyer to do a bunch of paperwork to get a VIN. I don’t think they can be sold ready-to-drive but I think there are dodges there too (owner tightens last bolt style). The details vary by state. Looking for details, I found that there have also been recent changes to ease requirements for small-batch (< 325/year) turn-key replica manufacturers.
  - electriclove 3y ago
    But people ARE saying the thieves are not at fault.. “it’s just kids”, “we don’t want to put them in jail because that would ruin their future”, “they can’t pay a fine anyway so there is no point in going after them”
    - EasyMark 3y ago
      No one is saying that, there are multiple contributors to the problem here, sure the thieves own the bulk of it, but manufacturers could fix the issue or offer a solution like a cheap install of an immobilizer.
      - electriclove 3y ago
        In my left leaning workplace in my left leaning state, most colleagues do not want to assign the thieves any blame or have them face any consequences. These colleagues only want to blame and penalize the manufacturers. I think the manufacturer should fix things so they are more in line with other manufacturers. But I also want to see some repercussions for the thieves.
        electriclove 3y ago
        Can the downvoters explain why they disagree with: "I think the manufacturer should fix things so they are more in line with other manufacturers. But I also want to see some repercussions for the thieves."
        Dylan16807 3y ago
        That's obviously not the sentence people are disagreeing with. There is no way your colleagues want the thieves to not face any consequences. It's a completely different thing to not trust the justice system to give an appropriate consequence.
        electriclove 3y ago
        My colleagues never call out the thieves or call for consequences. They skirt that issue and focus their rhetoric on the big, bad companies or blame the victim (eg should have locked his bike, should have taken valuables out of the car, etc)
- deepsun 3y ago
  Just use "passw0rd" everywhere. It's the fault of a hacker who steals your account, not your fault. Every single time. Especially that no security is absolute. Effort matters.
- sonicanatidae 3y ago
  You are conflating "what's right" and "how the world actually works". Trust me. I have similar issues, to a clinical level, in fact. Does this sound familiar? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive%E2%80%93compulsive_personality_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive%E2%80%93compulsive_p...
- RHSeeger 3y ago
  > If I left a million dollars out on my front porch, and someone stole it, that would not be my fault in any sort of way It's possible for multiple people to share the blame for something. You _are_ the victim. The person who stole it _is_ the bad guy / criminal. But you _both_ share the blame, because you did something to put yourself at risk when you had better options. If I'm out late at night, wearing expensive jewelry and have 2 ways home; one longer but down a well lit road, the other shorter but through a dark alley in a crime ridden neighborhood; and I chose the dark alley and got mugged... I would be the victim AND be partially to blame for making a stupid choice. Making choices that put yourself at risk by ignoring the realities of the world, when you don't need to, mean you share the blame.
  - madmountaingoat 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - the_optimist 3y ago
      A strongly held opinion here seems to be that clothes manufacturers are to blame.
    - elzbardico 3y ago
      apparently, only on dark alleys at night.
    - electriclove 3y ago
      Exactly! The people holding these views are unable to see their hypocrisy.
    - pierat 3y ago
      [flagged]
    - RHSeeger 3y ago
      I'm saying that it's possible to both be the victim and to have made a stupid choice that made you winding up as the victim more likely. And, clearly, that it's possible for you to be unable to understand such subtleties.
- electriclove 3y ago
  Why aren’t you downvoters blaming the perpetrators that are STEALING cars?!??
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
sundvor 3y ago
Speaking as an outsider: How are Kias sales going these days? How's their reputation as a result of this? Imo for removing security for the US market they deserve to be properly thrashed and dragged through the mud, regardless of the fact that they are offering upgrades from free if I read the following correctly. https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/hyundai-kia-campaign-prevent-vehicle-theft https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/hyundai-kia-campaign-pr... It's not exactly an over the air "recall", and I understand a huge number are still out there unprotected.
CTDOCodebases 3y ago
Same thing in Australia since 2001. Most cars in are stolen here using key thefts or wireless relay.

alexb_ 3y ago

[flagged]

eptcyka 3y ago
Nominally, you are correct, but if we can collectively make decisions that decrease the risk of theft, is it not immoral bot to take action?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
franga2000 3y ago
The manufacturer is not the victim here, the buyer is. If I pay a contractor to install a new door and lock on my apartment and it turns out they did a terrible job which made it trivial for a thief to break in, the contractor should be liable. Crime exists, this is the world we live in. Failing to implement even the most basic security measure, which is considered industry standard, in a high-value product that is known to be very attractive to thieves and then selling that product to consumers with no warning that "unlike most other cars on the market, which have many layers of security features, this car can be stolen using a cheap toy" makes the inevitable thefts absolutely Kia's fault. It's not like people are saying the thieves did nothing wrong, both sides are at fault: the thieves stole people's cars to enrich themselves and Kia secretly omitted a basic security feature which in turn enabled thousands of fully predictable and preventable thefts from their customers, again, to enrich themselves.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  > Failing to implement even the most basic security measure, which is considered industry standard, in a high-value product that is known to be very attractive to thieves and then selling that product to consumers with no warning that "unlike most other cars on the market, which have many layers of security features, this car can be stolen using a cheap toy" makes the inevitable thefts absolutely Kia's fault. I don't think this logic works. If you buy a classic vehicle, they don't have these kinds of things either. People make replicas that likewise don't. And there is no clear line here. Basically any car can be stolen by, if nothing else, replacing the car's computer with one that accepts the thief's key. Meanwhile a car is a large purchase where people can reasonably be expected to do some research. If you're about to buy a car you should read some reviews, and the reviewers should tell you if their security is bad. Then you know and can make your decision. People who learn of this may want to buy a different car, or take some other countermeasures if they buy this one. Kia doesn't have any kind of a monopoly in this market. There are many other carmakers. Maybe you don't care that their security is bad because you always park your car in a garage. Maybe you like the discount you got because other buyers wanted a car with better security. Why does it have to be illegal, instead of letting the market sort it out in the presence of actual competition?
  - filoleg 3y ago
    > If you buy a classic vehicle, they don't have these kinds of things either Not a good analogy, because buying a classic vehicle automatically waives a bunch of safety and other features that are not only expected in modern day, they are straight up legally required. A car manufacturer cannot remake a classic vehicle from the 80s and release it in the US in 2024. Or, probably, EU too, I cannot speak for that due to my unfamiliarity with vehicle laws there, but afaik they are more strict than the US. It would be just illegal to sell that car. Thin pillars that won’t pass any modern safety tests, no backup camera (which makes it illegal to sell as a new car in the US), not enoug crumple zones, etc.
    - eep_social 3y ago
      The standard dodge in the US is to sell “kit cars” which require the buyer to do a bunch of paperwork to get a VIN. I don’t think they can be sold ready-to-drive but I think there are dodges there too (owner tightens last bolt style). The details vary by state. Looking for details, I found that there have also been recent changes to ease requirements for small-batch (< 325/year) turn-key replica manufacturers.
- electriclove 3y ago
  But people ARE saying the thieves are not at fault.. “it’s just kids”, “we don’t want to put them in jail because that would ruin their future”, “they can’t pay a fine anyway so there is no point in going after them”
  - EasyMark 3y ago
    No one is saying that, there are multiple contributors to the problem here, sure the thieves own the bulk of it, but manufacturers could fix the issue or offer a solution like a cheap install of an immobilizer.
    - electriclove 3y ago
      In my left leaning workplace in my left leaning state, most colleagues do not want to assign the thieves any blame or have them face any consequences. These colleagues only want to blame and penalize the manufacturers. I think the manufacturer should fix things so they are more in line with other manufacturers. But I also want to see some repercussions for the thieves.
      - electriclove 3y ago
        Can the downvoters explain why they disagree with: "I think the manufacturer should fix things so they are more in line with other manufacturers. But I also want to see some repercussions for the thieves."
        Dylan16807 3y ago
        That's obviously not the sentence people are disagreeing with. There is no way your colleagues want the thieves to not face any consequences. It's a completely different thing to not trust the justice system to give an appropriate consequence.
        electriclove 3y ago
        My colleagues never call out the thieves or call for consequences. They skirt that issue and focus their rhetoric on the big, bad companies or blame the victim (eg should have locked his bike, should have taken valuables out of the car, etc)
deepsun 3y ago
Just use "passw0rd" everywhere. It's the fault of a hacker who steals your account, not your fault. Every single time. Especially that no security is absolute. Effort matters.
sonicanatidae 3y ago
You are conflating "what's right" and "how the world actually works". Trust me. I have similar issues, to a clinical level, in fact. Does this sound familiar? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive%E2%80%93compulsive_personality_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive%E2%80%93compulsive_p...
RHSeeger 3y ago
> If I left a million dollars out on my front porch, and someone stole it, that would not be my fault in any sort of way It's possible for multiple people to share the blame for something. You _are_ the victim. The person who stole it _is_ the bad guy / criminal. But you _both_ share the blame, because you did something to put yourself at risk when you had better options. If I'm out late at night, wearing expensive jewelry and have 2 ways home; one longer but down a well lit road, the other shorter but through a dark alley in a crime ridden neighborhood; and I chose the dark alley and got mugged... I would be the victim AND be partially to blame for making a stupid choice. Making choices that put yourself at risk by ignoring the realities of the world, when you don't need to, mean you share the blame.
- madmountaingoat 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - the_optimist 3y ago
    A strongly held opinion here seems to be that clothes manufacturers are to blame.
  - elzbardico 3y ago
    apparently, only on dark alleys at night.
  - electriclove 3y ago
    Exactly! The people holding these views are unable to see their hypocrisy.
  - pierat 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - RHSeeger 3y ago
    I'm saying that it's possible to both be the victim and to have made a stupid choice that made you winding up as the victim more likely. And, clearly, that it's possible for you to be unable to understand such subtleties.
electriclove 3y ago
Why aren’t you downvoters blaming the perpetrators that are STEALING cars?!??
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

sundvor 3y ago

Speaking as an outsider: How are Kias sales going these days? How's their reputation as a result of this? Imo for removing security for the US market they deserve to be properly thrashed and dragged through the mud, regardless of the fact that they are offering upgrades from free if I read the following correctly. https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/hyundai-kia-campaign-prevent-vehicle-theft https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/hyundai-kia-campaign-pr... It's not exactly an over the air "recall", and I understand a huge number are still out there unprotected.

CTDOCodebases 3y ago

Same thing in Australia since 2001. Most cars in are stolen here using key thefts or wireless relay.