6 ms·

Pretty great advertisement for Signal, as the sole cross-platform option in the PQC bucket. Does it seem likely they will match Apple here eventually?

adamtaylor_13 3y ago
In my experience, these markets can overlap but don’t necessarily always do so. I message everyone via iMessage, and while I enjoy the feeling of security from the blue bubble it’s not a must-have for me. Signal on the other hand seems like a must-have for many people living under oppressive regimes or whose data is significantly more valuable than mine. I am one data point, but that’s what I’ve noticed in my bubble.
- yesimahuman 3y ago
  For me, Signal is so much better for my friend or work group chats. My friends are on a mix of devices and platforms, and Signal is a lot nicer for embedded media sharing. And the auto disappearing feature is a must!
  - adamtaylor_13 3y ago
    Hmm… Does signal only really work when everyone uses it? Or can you include people who are just using regular SMS?
    - Jtsummers 3y ago
      Only Signal users. The Android app used to work with SMS/MMS until a couple years ago.
    - temp0826 3y ago
      I don't think any app besides iMessage can even get permission to read SMS on iOS, there are no alternative message apps I'm aware of like with android.
    - bebopfunk 3y ago
      It used to have SMS support but they yanked it maybe a year or so ago. The big issue on the user end was, if someone deleted Signal and you used Signal for your SMS, it would keep sending them signal messages and not SMS. So you were left not realizing you were texting essentially a dead number.
      - JoshTriplett 3y ago
        ...much like iMessage.
      - crtasm 3y ago
        It didn't show the icon for the message status, same as any other signal message?
    - issafram 3y ago
      The regular SMS/MMS feature was removed and for good reason. Many people cried about it but it was the right call. Messages would not be E2EE and people could easily think all messages sent through Signal are safe when they weren't.
  - jwells89 3y ago
    The main things holding back Signal usage in my case is practically nobody in my social circle using it and the desktop client not being as nice as that of Messages or Telegram, the latter being particularly relevant for myself and contacts who primarily message with their computers rather than their phones.
    - WirelessGigabit 3y ago
      Using Linux iMessages doesn't even have a client...
    - godelski 3y ago
      Sounds like time to become an evangelist then. I had to do this in my group and other than security a major benefit is just that getting potatos instead of pictures has significantly declined. Here's my advice: don't sell security as the foremost feature. Sell it as "iMessage, but for everyone." You got stickers, reactions, high quality videos and images. Then mention security, it is the cherry on top.
      - pavon 3y ago
        Every single person I converted to using Signal stopped using it when SMS support was removed. HN tends to be a younger crowd whose peers cycled through a number of social-networking and messaging apps as popularity waxed and waned. But older generations don't see any compelling reason why they should bother splitting their conversations over multiple apps, when literally everyone with a mobile has texting. Being a drop-in replacement for texting, so they could have additional features without additional hassle was the only thing that convinced them to switch and now it is gone. I've given up evangelizing Signal, and resigned to the idea that cross-platform RCS is the only thing that will bring encryption to the majority of my contacts.
        godelski 3y ago
        Yeah I think this was a bad move for Signal, but I didn't see that happen to my group fortunately. In Signal's defense, my understanding is that this was really an Apple thing. That Apple only lets iMessage connect to SMS so the apps were differing significantly. I also get the fatigue. Moxie said centralized because they needed to move faster. But Signal has always moved very slow, so it does feel off. But to be fair, it's not like most messenger apps do much.
  - ramses0 3y ago
    Signal is actually pretty good for the occasional "cross-iOS/Android" video chat. Can't use iOS Facetime, don't want to use $META, google/meet is OK, but isn't quite as straightforward as "@Signal => CALL_ME".
    - macshome 3y ago
      Anyone can use FaceTime now. Non Apple devices will just join via a browser.
      - issafram 3y ago
        Which is ridiculous
      - illiac786 3y ago
        What? how does that work? If you call the cell number of an Android device on facetime, what happens on the android end?
        snazz 3y ago
        You text them a link to join the call. The Android user can’t be the one to initiate.
        illiac786 3y ago
        Oh. Ok that's never going to work. "Hey there please click on this link to talk to me" => Malware! Blocked.
        simondotau 3y ago
        It’s how many Zoom and Teams calls terminate. Not saying it’s a good idea, but it’s not especially unusual.
        illiac786 3y ago
- sneak 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - marcellus23 3y ago
    To clear up the FUD here, this is only true if you turn on iCloud backups (many users do, but still) and don't turn on Advanced Data Protection. ADP is off by default because it means you'll lose all your backups if you forget your iCloud password. > it’s a platform designed to aid illegal government surveillance. Come on.
    - sneak 3y ago
      These are the defaults. You don’t need to turn on iCloud Backup, it’s already on. You don’t need to turn off Advanced Data Protection, it’s already off. Literally all you need to do is turn on a new iPhone and try to install any app. It will prompt for your Apple ID login (impossible to install apps without it) and will automatically enable iCloud, iCloud Backup, and iMessage (and will not enable ADP). https://www.forbes.com/sites/kateoflahertyuk/2020/01/21/apple-halted-icloud-encryption-plans-after-fbi-warningreport/amp/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/kateoflahertyuk/2020/01/21/appl... They explicitly killed the e2ee support for backups some time ago at the behest of the FBI to preserve the backdoor. It’s still practically backdoored for nearly all iMessage users because it is off by default (and the UX sucks even if you turn it on). Approximately nobody is using it; the status quo is preserved. iMessage is backdoored and is not e2ee due to key escrow. If you message someone on iMessage, Apple will be able to read the message, even if you have ADP enabled (because the other endpoint does not). That’s fact, today. Additionally, even if you turn on ADP, the hashes of unencrypted file content in iCloud are stored non-e2ee, so Apple can still see who has which unique files and when, and who else receives them and when. This allows them to monitor social graphs, too.
      - overstay8930 3y ago
        iMessage is excluded by default on iCloud backups, that's what the other guy is saying
- 0x457 3y ago
  I noticed an uptick in scams using iMessage. It's (almost) obvious that you are not talking to a real human. The scheme is pretty simple: lure you to iMessage, so you feel safe, then propose moving to another chat service that is easier to run bots on (telegram, whatsapp, etc) and start a regular programming.
- sunshowers 3y ago
  Do you not send messages to any Android users? That is incredibly hard to imagine for me. My friend group is very mixed and Signal is what we use.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
markstos 3y ago
I thought it was a great advertisement for Signal because Signal and their protocol is public and their software is free, open source and cross-platform. In light of that Apple's message reads more like announcement that people who can afford iPhones will now have better security and privacy when they chat with themselves.
bjoli 3y ago
I am not sure if I understand things correctly, but what apple did seems like a lot of work for little benefit. Symmetric encryption is not threatened nearly as much by quantum computers. Using a PQ key exchange should make adequately safe until someone breaks symmetric encryption, which seems like a high odds bet. The author of age wrote some time ago why aes128 is good enough. But I am a classical musician so for the love of god don't listen to me.

adamtaylor_13 3y ago

In my experience, these markets can overlap but don’t necessarily always do so. I message everyone via iMessage, and while I enjoy the feeling of security from the blue bubble it’s not a must-have for me. Signal on the other hand seems like a must-have for many people living under oppressive regimes or whose data is significantly more valuable than mine. I am one data point, but that’s what I’ve noticed in my bubble.

yesimahuman 3y ago
For me, Signal is so much better for my friend or work group chats. My friends are on a mix of devices and platforms, and Signal is a lot nicer for embedded media sharing. And the auto disappearing feature is a must!
- adamtaylor_13 3y ago
  Hmm… Does signal only really work when everyone uses it? Or can you include people who are just using regular SMS?
  - Jtsummers 3y ago
    Only Signal users. The Android app used to work with SMS/MMS until a couple years ago.
  - temp0826 3y ago
    I don't think any app besides iMessage can even get permission to read SMS on iOS, there are no alternative message apps I'm aware of like with android.
  - bebopfunk 3y ago
    It used to have SMS support but they yanked it maybe a year or so ago. The big issue on the user end was, if someone deleted Signal and you used Signal for your SMS, it would keep sending them signal messages and not SMS. So you were left not realizing you were texting essentially a dead number.
    - JoshTriplett 3y ago
      ...much like iMessage.
    - crtasm 3y ago
      It didn't show the icon for the message status, same as any other signal message?
  - issafram 3y ago
    The regular SMS/MMS feature was removed and for good reason. Many people cried about it but it was the right call. Messages would not be E2EE and people could easily think all messages sent through Signal are safe when they weren't.
- jwells89 3y ago
  The main things holding back Signal usage in my case is practically nobody in my social circle using it and the desktop client not being as nice as that of Messages or Telegram, the latter being particularly relevant for myself and contacts who primarily message with their computers rather than their phones.
  - WirelessGigabit 3y ago
    Using Linux iMessages doesn't even have a client...
  - godelski 3y ago
    Sounds like time to become an evangelist then. I had to do this in my group and other than security a major benefit is just that getting potatos instead of pictures has significantly declined. Here's my advice: don't sell security as the foremost feature. Sell it as "iMessage, but for everyone." You got stickers, reactions, high quality videos and images. Then mention security, it is the cherry on top.
    - pavon 3y ago
      Every single person I converted to using Signal stopped using it when SMS support was removed. HN tends to be a younger crowd whose peers cycled through a number of social-networking and messaging apps as popularity waxed and waned. But older generations don't see any compelling reason why they should bother splitting their conversations over multiple apps, when literally everyone with a mobile has texting. Being a drop-in replacement for texting, so they could have additional features without additional hassle was the only thing that convinced them to switch and now it is gone. I've given up evangelizing Signal, and resigned to the idea that cross-platform RCS is the only thing that will bring encryption to the majority of my contacts.
      - godelski 3y ago
        Yeah I think this was a bad move for Signal, but I didn't see that happen to my group fortunately. In Signal's defense, my understanding is that this was really an Apple thing. That Apple only lets iMessage connect to SMS so the apps were differing significantly. I also get the fatigue. Moxie said centralized because they needed to move faster. But Signal has always moved very slow, so it does feel off. But to be fair, it's not like most messenger apps do much.
- ramses0 3y ago
  Signal is actually pretty good for the occasional "cross-iOS/Android" video chat. Can't use iOS Facetime, don't want to use $META, google/meet is OK, but isn't quite as straightforward as "@Signal => CALL_ME".
  - macshome 3y ago
    Anyone can use FaceTime now. Non Apple devices will just join via a browser.
    - issafram 3y ago
      Which is ridiculous
    - illiac786 3y ago
      What? how does that work? If you call the cell number of an Android device on facetime, what happens on the android end?
      - snazz 3y ago
        You text them a link to join the call. The Android user can’t be the one to initiate.
        illiac786 3y ago
        Oh. Ok that's never going to work. "Hey there please click on this link to talk to me" => Malware! Blocked.
        simondotau 3y ago
        It’s how many Zoom and Teams calls terminate. Not saying it’s a good idea, but it’s not especially unusual.
        illiac786 3y ago
sneak 3y ago
[flagged]
- marcellus23 3y ago
  To clear up the FUD here, this is only true if you turn on iCloud backups (many users do, but still) and don't turn on Advanced Data Protection. ADP is off by default because it means you'll lose all your backups if you forget your iCloud password. > it’s a platform designed to aid illegal government surveillance. Come on.
  - sneak 3y ago
    These are the defaults. You don’t need to turn on iCloud Backup, it’s already on. You don’t need to turn off Advanced Data Protection, it’s already off. Literally all you need to do is turn on a new iPhone and try to install any app. It will prompt for your Apple ID login (impossible to install apps without it) and will automatically enable iCloud, iCloud Backup, and iMessage (and will not enable ADP). https://www.forbes.com/sites/kateoflahertyuk/2020/01/21/apple-halted-icloud-encryption-plans-after-fbi-warningreport/amp/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/kateoflahertyuk/2020/01/21/appl... They explicitly killed the e2ee support for backups some time ago at the behest of the FBI to preserve the backdoor. It’s still practically backdoored for nearly all iMessage users because it is off by default (and the UX sucks even if you turn it on). Approximately nobody is using it; the status quo is preserved. iMessage is backdoored and is not e2ee due to key escrow. If you message someone on iMessage, Apple will be able to read the message, even if you have ADP enabled (because the other endpoint does not). That’s fact, today. Additionally, even if you turn on ADP, the hashes of unencrypted file content in iCloud are stored non-e2ee, so Apple can still see who has which unique files and when, and who else receives them and when. This allows them to monitor social graphs, too.
    - overstay8930 3y ago
      iMessage is excluded by default on iCloud backups, that's what the other guy is saying
0x457 3y ago
I noticed an uptick in scams using iMessage. It's (almost) obvious that you are not talking to a real human. The scheme is pretty simple: lure you to iMessage, so you feel safe, then propose moving to another chat service that is easier to run bots on (telegram, whatsapp, etc) and start a regular programming.
sunshowers 3y ago
Do you not send messages to any Android users? That is incredibly hard to imagine for me. My friend group is very mixed and Signal is what we use.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

markstos 3y ago

I thought it was a great advertisement for Signal because Signal and their protocol is public and their software is free, open source and cross-platform. In light of that Apple's message reads more like announcement that people who can afford iPhones will now have better security and privacy when they chat with themselves.

bjoli 3y ago

I am not sure if I understand things correctly, but what apple did seems like a lot of work for little benefit. Symmetric encryption is not threatened nearly as much by quantum computers. Using a PQ key exchange should make adequately safe until someone breaks symmetric encryption, which seems like a high odds bet. The author of age wrote some time ago why aes128 is good enough. But I am a classical musician so for the love of god don't listen to me.