6 ms·

The chance of a 50-year old (and I say that as someone not too far off that) being correct about youth (non-?)subcultures is so low, I really wonder why people

by dwb 3y ago

The chance of a 50-year old (and I say that as someone not too far off that) being correct about youth (non-?)subcultures is so low, I really wonder why people bother. I guess there was an article to write. The "aesthetic" proliferation sounds fun and harmless. I wish adults would write about younger people (if they really have anything to say at all) with a respectful interest and open-mindedness rather than whatever this is.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
Basically the Simpsons were right.
nonrandomstring 3y ago
Nothing pisses your kids off more than "getting it". You need to be able to shoulder a massive amount of indignity, self-irony, self mocking and deprecation. I threaten to dad-dance at the school disco. Work hard enough at it and one day you may hear the greatest compliment when they're talking to friends ... "you know I think my parents may actually have been cool once".
fatnoah 3y ago
Agree. This feels like judging youth because they don't feel compelled to conform to some "subculture" in order to have a happy, fulfilling youth. As the parent of a teen, I see a massive difference from what I saw as a teen in the late 1980's. At my school, there were very clear and visual identifiers for whatever group kids were in. Crossing these lines was effectively leaving one's comfort zone, and was awkward and difficult. For my own kid and those that I see at his school, it's much more about common interests, and that feels like more of a matrix than the coveted & siloed subculture worshipped by the author. Kids seem to be more united by what they do than what group they identify with. There are still peer pressures, elements of shared culture (especially in clothing), but it doesn't feel as rigid as in the days of my youth. The old cliquey tropes seem very, very diminished.
- addicted 3y ago
  Except that’s not what the author is saying at all. For example, the example you’ve given about shared interests is exactly what the author wants, and is bemoaning the lack of. I’m not sure why you say that’s siloed, but the argument the author makes is that these shared interests don’t exist anymore which they noticed because of the lack of aesthetics around them, since shared interests usually generate a set of aesthetics. Imagine a group of D&D players who then decide to start role playing in costumes, and invent the idea of cosplay. They hold conventions, etc where they show up to celebrate their shared interest in D&D and usually dress up in certain costumes which emerges as the cosplay aesthetic. In this case the shared interest, D&D forms the sub culture, and the costumes forms the aesthetic based on that subculture. Now, say no one is playing D&D anymore, and a few decades pass, and suddenly the cosplay aesthetic sees a resurgence. People are dressing in those same costumes, but no one participating in this aesthetic has heard of D&D anymore. That’s what the author sees. Aesthetics that exist almost entirely independent of any subcultures (which could also be based on shared interests). And the author implicitly stipulates that most shared interests (subcultures) would lead to aesthetics, so the lack of such aesthetics indicates to the author a lack of subcultures. The author arrives from the outside in, but their argument is entirely around the lack of shared interests and has nothing to do with the aesthetics, other than being an entryway into subcultures.
bloqs 3y ago
I whole heartedly agree.
gumby 3y ago
> The chance of a 50-year old (and I say that as someone not too far off that) being correct about youth (non-?)subcultures is so low, I really wonder why people bother. The chance that any random 50 yo will get it is moderately low, but the chance that there are some who do is quite high. The latter are involved in marketing to these collectively high-spending groups, and have been since the 50s. Then there’s a cohort who claim to get it (or loudly claim not to get it) who maybe do, maybe don’t, though it doesn’t matter: what they do is talk to their contemporaries. Also if you live with teens there’s a pretty good chance you do actually know quite a bit about them culture. Some teens are closer to their parents than others, even within a single family.
thefz 3y ago
> The chance of a 50-year old (and I say that as someone not too far off that) being correct about youth (non-?)subcultures is so low, Care to elaborate? Why is there somethin intrinsic in age that makes teen subcultures so difficult to grasp? And that is for everybody? I mean, even an educator working 10 hours a day in close contact with such subcultures? And what does make teen subcultures so evasive specifically? They change fast?
ww-picard-do 3y ago
> The "aesthetic" proliferation sounds fun and harmless. The author's thesis is that these aesthetics have replaced subcultures and that has led to kids being lonely and sad. You can disagree with that, but it seems that you are just ignoring that. > with a respectful interest and open-mindedness How is the author being disrespectful to young people? The criticisms are entirely pointed at the content producing machine.
- dwb 3y ago
  The author isn't blaming kids, but is falling into the same trap as previous "back in my day" types of focusing on cultural trappings rather than material conditions. I didn't say the author was being disrespectful to anyone; I guess I should have added more caveats or something but I was just trying to describe my preference.
  - orwin 3y ago
    So if I understand, your (fair) response to a criticism of aesthetism replacing meaning, is that the critique is too cultural and not materialist enough (not evaluating either arguments here, just trying to rephrase it) This is the most Marxist stuff I've seen in a while on a public forum, thank you HN.
JKCalhoun 3y ago
I suppose the youth writing about 50-year olds is going to be just as fraught with incorrectness. Why should either party bother then making observations about the other at all? To answer my own question, I think the more observant, reflective, and contemplative individuals from either group very likely will have something to say that may cause the other to pause. While they may often not get the other, I think being immediately dismissive of what they have to say is the worse sin.
- rufus_foreman 3y ago
  >> I suppose the youth writing about 50-year olds is going to be just as fraught with incorrectness It isn't symmetric. 50-year olds have more experience at being young than young people do, although the experience is not as recent.

by dwb 3y ago

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

Basically the Simpsons were right.

nonrandomstring 3y ago

Nothing pisses your kids off more than "getting it". You need to be able to shoulder a massive amount of indignity, self-irony, self mocking and deprecation. I threaten to dad-dance at the school disco. Work hard enough at it and one day you may hear the greatest compliment when they're talking to friends ... "you know I think my parents may actually have been cool once".

fatnoah 3y ago

Agree. This feels like judging youth because they don't feel compelled to conform to some "subculture" in order to have a happy, fulfilling youth. As the parent of a teen, I see a massive difference from what I saw as a teen in the late 1980's. At my school, there were very clear and visual identifiers for whatever group kids were in. Crossing these lines was effectively leaving one's comfort zone, and was awkward and difficult. For my own kid and those that I see at his school, it's much more about common interests, and that feels like more of a matrix than the coveted & siloed subculture worshipped by the author. Kids seem to be more united by what they do than what group they identify with. There are still peer pressures, elements of shared culture (especially in clothing), but it doesn't feel as rigid as in the days of my youth. The old cliquey tropes seem very, very diminished.

addicted 3y ago
Except that’s not what the author is saying at all. For example, the example you’ve given about shared interests is exactly what the author wants, and is bemoaning the lack of. I’m not sure why you say that’s siloed, but the argument the author makes is that these shared interests don’t exist anymore which they noticed because of the lack of aesthetics around them, since shared interests usually generate a set of aesthetics. Imagine a group of D&D players who then decide to start role playing in costumes, and invent the idea of cosplay. They hold conventions, etc where they show up to celebrate their shared interest in D&D and usually dress up in certain costumes which emerges as the cosplay aesthetic. In this case the shared interest, D&D forms the sub culture, and the costumes forms the aesthetic based on that subculture. Now, say no one is playing D&D anymore, and a few decades pass, and suddenly the cosplay aesthetic sees a resurgence. People are dressing in those same costumes, but no one participating in this aesthetic has heard of D&D anymore. That’s what the author sees. Aesthetics that exist almost entirely independent of any subcultures (which could also be based on shared interests). And the author implicitly stipulates that most shared interests (subcultures) would lead to aesthetics, so the lack of such aesthetics indicates to the author a lack of subcultures. The author arrives from the outside in, but their argument is entirely around the lack of shared interests and has nothing to do with the aesthetics, other than being an entryway into subcultures.

bloqs 3y ago

I whole heartedly agree.

gumby 3y ago

> The chance of a 50-year old (and I say that as someone not too far off that) being correct about youth (non-?)subcultures is so low, I really wonder why people bother. The chance that any random 50 yo will get it is moderately low, but the chance that there are some who do is quite high. The latter are involved in marketing to these collectively high-spending groups, and have been since the 50s. Then there’s a cohort who claim to get it (or loudly claim not to get it) who maybe do, maybe don’t, though it doesn’t matter: what they do is talk to their contemporaries. Also if you live with teens there’s a pretty good chance you do actually know quite a bit about them culture. Some teens are closer to their parents than others, even within a single family.

thefz 3y ago

> The chance of a 50-year old (and I say that as someone not too far off that) being correct about youth (non-?)subcultures is so low, Care to elaborate? Why is there somethin intrinsic in age that makes teen subcultures so difficult to grasp? And that is for everybody? I mean, even an educator working 10 hours a day in close contact with such subcultures? And what does make teen subcultures so evasive specifically? They change fast?

ww-picard-do 3y ago

> The "aesthetic" proliferation sounds fun and harmless. The author's thesis is that these aesthetics have replaced subcultures and that has led to kids being lonely and sad. You can disagree with that, but it seems that you are just ignoring that. > with a respectful interest and open-mindedness How is the author being disrespectful to young people? The criticisms are entirely pointed at the content producing machine.

dwb 3y ago
The author isn't blaming kids, but is falling into the same trap as previous "back in my day" types of focusing on cultural trappings rather than material conditions. I didn't say the author was being disrespectful to anyone; I guess I should have added more caveats or something but I was just trying to describe my preference.
- orwin 3y ago
  So if I understand, your (fair) response to a criticism of aesthetism replacing meaning, is that the critique is too cultural and not materialist enough (not evaluating either arguments here, just trying to rephrase it) This is the most Marxist stuff I've seen in a while on a public forum, thank you HN.

JKCalhoun 3y ago

I suppose the youth writing about 50-year olds is going to be just as fraught with incorrectness. Why should either party bother then making observations about the other at all? To answer my own question, I think the more observant, reflective, and contemplative individuals from either group very likely will have something to say that may cause the other to pause. While they may often not get the other, I think being immediately dismissive of what they have to say is the worse sin.

rufus_foreman 3y ago
>> I suppose the youth writing about 50-year olds is going to be just as fraught with incorrectness It isn't symmetric. 50-year olds have more experience at being young than young people do, although the experience is not as recent.