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Sooo they have been stealing Infiniti's from my area recently with relative ease allegedly by using a Bluetooth obd2 reader connected to an android tablet runni
by hoofhearted 3y ago
Sooo they have been stealing Infiniti's from my area recently with relative ease allegedly by using a Bluetooth obd2 reader connected to an android tablet running a pirated copy of some Nissan service tech software.
Nobody from any of the Infiniti groups is 100% certain how they are doing it, but the best theory out there is above.
Just the other night, a crew of dudes stole 3 Q50’s from my neighborhood with relative ease.
Here is the ring cam video my neighbor posted:
https://video.nest.com/clip/8ef4d060588d4c7289f87cccb00cb55a.mp4 https://video.nest.com/clip/8ef4d060588d4c7289f87cccb00cb55a...
- bpoyner 3y agoThe answer is simple, we need to ban android tablets. /s
- hoofhearted 3y agoFix the cars. A brand new $60,000 car shouldn’t be so simple to swipe. They probably spent less time stealing my neighbors car than he did waiting on the credit check to buy the car lol… it’s crazy these days with cars.
- newsclues 3y agoCars are computers now. What do we know about computer security and physical access? If I can touch the machine, I can hack and own it. No level of technology will stop this. But cutting off the profit motive by making it very hard to export cars will have a massive impact on these crimes, and for old and new cars.
- caskstrength 3y ago> What do we know about computer security and physical access? If I can touch the machine, I can hack and own it. Can you hack and own my fully patched Pixel phone? Or my GF's iPhone? Sure, sophisticated state-sponsored actors can sometimes do it by burning several million dollars worth of 0days in the process, but some two-digit IQ riff-raffs? Probably not so much. EDIT: just to be clear - by "two-digit IQ riff-raff" I meant OP's neighborhood car thieves, not you :)
- eertami 3y agoPhone thieves will watch over peoples shoulders for them to input a passcode, which isn't that dissimilar to a lot of the replay/signal extension attacks. A lot of damage can be done and things successfully owned without needing to hack or exploit the device (car/phone).
- caskstrength 3y ago> Phone thieves will watch over peoples shoulders for them to input a passcode, which isn't that dissimilar to a lot of the replay/signal extension attacks. You have any reference regarding how prevalent that is? Everyone I know switched to biometrics a decade ago.
- newsclues 3y agoThis is done by organized crime with engineers on staff. Sure it’s drug addicts stealing cars but the people shipping them are smart and have access to capital.
- caskstrength 3y agoI agree, but that brings us back to my original question: why can't same smart organized crime people unlock my smartphone then? Because Apple/Google give a damn about security and car manufacturers do not.
- ryandrake 3y agoAlso: When your phone or computer is hacked, most people think "Wow, the device is flawed." But when your car gets stolen, most people think "Wow, we should stop those criminals." Apple/Google are incentivized to give a damn about security because incidents reflects poorly on their products. We need to start making thefts via security exploits reflect poorly on the car manufacturers and their products.
- newsclues 3y agoEconomic incentives. People will buy a $150,000 SUV for 50k and they can still make money. Phones have less incentive and Apple is going to be better at bricking the phones than carmakers will.
- acdha 3y ago> What do we know about computer security and physical access? If I can touch the machine, I can hack and own it. It’s not the 2000s any more. Even national security agencies have trouble with phone decryption, and that suggests a path forward for cars using a tamper-resistant secure element since car thieves won’t spend more money attacking something than they can resell it for. Cars need service regularly you can have a way to replace a damaged SE which is more restricted so a legitimate owner can regain control of their stolen property - if you required, say, a government photo ID check for the owner on the title to reset the encryption keys, car thieves are highly unlikely to spend time getting high-quality fake ID since the odds of getting caught would go up dramatically, and you could deter shady auto shops by requiring them to submit proof of their ID verification for that service.
- newsclues 3y agoThey get exported overseas and any technology lock or security device gets ripped out and replaced. This isn’t about extracting encrypted data, but bypassing systems to start a car.
- acdha 3y agoYes, because the current design is lax. Now think about what happens if the engine computer won’t start with a bad signature or the entertainment system won’t work. How would that affect the overseas market?
- newsclues 3y agoThe part that requires a signature will be taken out and replaced. Infotainment systems will get gutted and replaced with aftermarket ones.
- acdha 3y agoAgain, all of those lower the value to the thieves. If they need to create a custom engine controller, they’re going to need to pay a lot more than the $0 they currently spend. If they need to replace the entertainment system, the cost of doing so will cut into their margin. Don’t make the mistake of thinking that a system needs to be perfect to be worthwhile.
- eertami 3y ago> No level of technology will stop this. Except for you know, the technology of a physical car keys and an immobilizer. There's a reason it's the keyless entry start/stop button cars that are being targeted by thieves, it's simply so much easier. The frustrating thing is that new cars are being produced that _only_ offer keyless entry, and so eventually the choice is taken away or you have to drive a very old car.
- Levitz 3y agoThe level of technology that stops this is cars not being computers. Every piece of tech has tradeoffs, and for cars this one is just not worth it.
- HeyLaughingBoy 3y agoWhat are you proposing? That we go back to being able to turn the ignition switch with a screwdriver?
- rjmunro 3y ago> No level of technology will stop this. Why does no one steal Teslas?
- newsclues 3y agoThink about where these cars end up, it’s not near a service centre.
- BrandoElFollito 3y ago> What do we know about computer security and physical access? If I can touch the machine, I can hack and own it. You are damn good then :) One can protect against such that's by using well placed cryptography.
- HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago> No level of technology will stop this. Tell that to the FDA. I work in medical devices. It's no longer sufficient to throw up your hands and assume "well, they have their hands on the device, we can't stop them from doing anything." The new cybersecurity guidance anticipates an attacker having physical access to your Device and you are expected to understand and mitigate any impact that can have. Cars shouldn't be any different.
- saint_fiasco 3y agoI'd bite that bullet. The FDA should be less strict with their cybersecurity stuff. The amount of lives lost to the increased cost of care is not worth the increase in cybersecurity. If medical devices have just enough security to stop people who don't have physical access to the device, just enough to make attacks at scale unfeasible, then that should be good enough IMO.
- nemo44x 3y agoOr make grand theft auto an offense that is actually prosecuted. Make hard penalties for violating another citizens by stealing their property. Start with 5 year minimums off the bat and every offense afterwards adds another 5 years. You'll see car theft plummet.
- blooalien 3y ago"Kill all humans!" ~ Bender B. Rodriguez Headline the next day: "Crime rate on Earth now at an all-time low of zero percent!"
- phoe-krk 3y agoHow do you calculate this value of zero percent? Divide all the crime cases of the previous day by the number of humans? And who wrote the headline?
- hansvm 3y ago> How do you calculate this value of zero percent? This gets messy for obvious topological/continuity reasons, but a shocking number of applications are both correct and simple to reason about if you choose to define 0/0 == 0 (kind of like how if you choose to universally define sum(empty_set) == 0 and product(empty_set) == 1 then tons of higher-level formulae just work and don't have to special-case a base case). In context, there's no good reason to pick that definition of 0/0 per se (other than my prior that 0/0 == 0 probably simplifies some downstream math), but it's kind of nice to see that if crime is at 0% then there is also zero crime. > And who wrote the headline? Now we're asking the real questions ;)
- aosmith 3y agoGiven what's going on in Canada maybe they should just ban OBD tools all together with the flipper. /s
- markhahn 3y agoObviously, we want owners to have full access to their car's CANBUS. So the question is: how should the OBD-2 plug (or wiring) be protected?
- hoofhearted 3y agoThe people in the Infiniti groups were recommending this obd2 lock haha https://www.amazon.com/Tune-Saver-OBDII-OBD2-Lock/dp/B0BRF5D18D/ref=asc_df_B0BRF5D18D/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=652442834773&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4707002145405608872&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9007915&hvtargid=pla-2084476101754&psc=1&mcid=7b3ab1c84fa231b2ae55620a204dc6f9 https://www.amazon.com/Tune-Saver-OBDII-OBD2-Lock/dp/B0BRF5D...
- irobeth 3y agoseems like a sophisticated theft ring would have access to the keys for the most common guards like this, reminds me of the TSA key debacle[1] [1]: https://github.com/Xyl2k/TSA-Travel-Sentry-master-keys https://github.com/Xyl2k/TSA-Travel-Sentry-master-keys
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- macNchz 3y agoThe TSA locks have widely circulated master keys because that's a basic requirement of the system–every airport has to have some to be able to open bags. I don't know anything about these OBD port locks, but I don't see any reason they'd have a master key, other than laziness on the part of the manufacturer. Additionally, I'd imagine that such a tiny fraction of a percentage of cars have these kinds of locks that it'd barely be worth it for thieves to figure out how to bypass them, at least until there's more widespread adoption.
- kube-system 3y ago> I don't know anything about these OBD port locks, but I don't see any reason they'd have a master key Look at it in the picture and the review pictures. They're all 'keyed' alike. It's just a single offset pin. Also one review says it just holds on with friction and can be pulled off with force.
- junon 3y agoDamn. That's a wild video (wish there was a fast forward though). Curious how they did it. Is this a CAN bus back?
- rlt 3y agoLocksmiths can make new key fobs for nearly any car with access to the OBD2 port and the right software (though I don’t know if it requires a connection to the manufacturer)
- swozey 3y agoI will never, ever keep a car I care about outside anywhere near the city. I know everyone doesn't have the funds for that, but I'm sorry, we all know how rampant car thefts have gotten since before those 3 Q50s in this video were even purchased. I live in the busiest neighborhood in downtown Denver with which has rampant property theft, cats cut out etc non-stop. I own 2 vehicles and neither of them are ever parked outside if I can help it. It means I have to pay pretty much twice for rent because now I need a 1-2 car private garage, which means I'm probably now in a condo or townhouse so every expense just gets higher and higher. But you're in the bracket of living downtown with a brand new Q50. So I don't care what your excuse is, buying a luxury/attention-getter car and parking it outside in cities with rampant car thefts is just absolutely stupid. Especially the people who buy the $80k luxu-box with the $5k 22" wheel add-on that gets ripped out of their mid-rise apartment parking garage a day later. I've had a car stolen and insurance does NOT treat you well when it happens and I never, ever want to deal with having a car stolen again no matter how much gaap/etc. I have.
- blitzar 3y ago> I know everyone doesn't have the funds for that Its actually a fair bit cheaper to buy a $25k car than a $250k car.
- HeyLaughingBoy 3y agoShhh! Don't tell anyone.
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- 14 3y agoIt would be trivial to hard wire a kill switch to your fuel pump and have it hidden somewhere so no matter what thief’s can’t drive off with your car. Much cheaper and more secure as cars can be stolen from parking garages.
- rasz 3y agoInfinite Infinity car hack, came with two, left with three Q50s. They do crouch an awful lot near front wheel well. Reminds me of this Toyota hack where thieves plug into headlight canbus wiring thru wheel arch https://kentindell.github.io/2023/04/03/can-injection/ https://kentindell.github.io/2023/04/03/can-injection/
- aosmith 3y agoThat's exactly what's happening. This is not a wireless attack, it's a physical access problem.
- SoftTalker 3y agoHard to prevent theft of something parked on the street. Thieves can show up with a tow truck, hook the car, and drive away.
- aosmith 3y agoDon't hook the headlights up to the can bus or implement UAC... The headlights shouldn't have access to the alarm or ignition.
- aosmith 3y agoSee all that time the thief spends near the drivers side headlight? The headlights are on the can bus, if you can tap a couple wires in there the cars is yours.
- ddalex 3y agoI'm very surprised to see that the ignition control is on the slow speed can bus...
- EasyMark 3y agoWhat part of starting a car is fast compared to the canbus? Speed is relative
- arjvik 3y agoGenuine question - why do headlights need to be on the main CAN bus? Could they not be operated from somewhere closer to the ECU by wires that just carry power and maybe some very simple data lines?
- sleepybrett 3y agoIt may be something as stupid as a wiring harness layout optimization. You can put the headlights controller at the headlights and only run a single set of CAN bus wires (which are probably in that area anyways), haven't played with CAN I assume they are fairly few and fairly thing gauge, through the firewall of the car.
- millzlane 3y agoIt was easy enough to do with https://www.uprev.com/ https://www.uprev.com/. We had a specialist shop in the same area. You can disable Security+ with uprev. Hell we would even use it to remove engines from nissans to make them run in whatever we put them in without the ignition. I can make the start signal just come from a momentary push button.
- aetherspawn 3y agoWell for one thing the OBD port shouldn’t be designed so that it has direct access to any useful CAN bus. It should go to a gateway that requires authentication to do anything except read OBD, and all of the IDs that you are allowed to send should be whitelisted. The issue people are mentioning with the headlights is easily solved by just moving the starter CAN to its own CAN bus between the immobiliser and the ECU (physically isolating the headlights), which costs about $5 total and requires no crypto unless thief is willing to cut the car nearly completely in half. (The problem with crypto is the $10 safety MCUs used all throughout cars are only like 20MHz and they can’t really do the 2000+ crypto ops/sec on top of their current workload. Also the tooling support for crypto ATM is really poor in the model based design tools that are used for this safety relevant SW) BTW I personally don’t believe that anything that involves cutting into a vehicle is negligence of anyone. I mean, from my perspective, anyone can just pop the hood and drive the car with their own BYO ECU. It’s just a hunk of metal and once you start cutting it up you can make it do whatever you want. I am an automotive systems engineer.
- ngneer 3y agoYes, the simplest solution sometimes really is the right one. Cheaply isolate sensitive targets from easily accessible areas. Your $5 solution is enough to avert these issues, and makes the attack a lot more expensive. The job is to find a "lever" where you only have to put in a little effort (say $5 worth) but which causes the thief to have to put in a lot of effort (cutting the car in half). The better the "lever", the safer the design.
- arjvik 3y agoI agree fully with this, except for the fact that this then makes devices like the Comma (comma.ai) impossible. The hacker in me really wants to be able to send steering signals by plugging something into my car :)
- Xelynega 3y agoIf you own the car, why wouldn't you be able to attach something to both of the CAN busses from the interior?
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- fennecbutt 3y agoI don't know if I have a clip of it still but that was nowhere near as fast as my neighbor's range rover being stolen during pandemic, broad daylight, four hoodies walk into our car park (flats) and walk out of camera view, 30 seconds later they're driving the range rover past the camera view and presumably rammed the gate we have (since it was broken). Both car manufacturers and police are useless and it's fucking inexcusable, imo.