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The human factor is one of the reasons Taiwan is as good in chip manufacturing as it is. Working in a chip factory is plain terrible for humans: Having to do a

The human factor is one of the reasons Taiwan is as good in chip manufacturing as it is. Working in a chip factory is plain terrible for humans: Having to do anything in a clean room is exhausting. Even young people in Taiwan are sceptical about the working conditions: https://www.thinkchina.sg/taiwan-lacks-young-passionate-workers-semiconductor-industry https://www.thinkchina.sg/taiwan-lacks-young-passionate-work... Japanese work culture is famous for glorifying the ability to suffer for your job, and Shintoism even puts a spiritual component to „cleanness“.

alephnerd 3y ago
It moved to Taiwan (and SK) from Japan because Japanese graduated from that kind of work culture. The work culture in Taiwan (and SK) is miles worse than Japan today - which makes sense as both are around 10-20 years behind Japan Median household income in Japan is around $48k [0], around $33k in SK [1], and Taiwan's I can't find but is around $28-34k based on median wage ($16k) [2] SK+TW have entered a similar doldrums to JP around 15-20 years ago, and just like how JP began outsourcing manufacturing to China, ASEAN (mostly Thailand), and India in the 2000s, SK+TW have started doing the same (Vietnam for SK, Taiwan hasn't found a major ASEAN partner yet) [0] - https://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/kakei/156n.html https://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/kakei/156n.html [1] - https://m-en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20231123001600320 https://m-en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20231123001600320 [2] - https://focustaiwan.tw/business/202312010011 https://focustaiwan.tw/business/202312010011
- aurareturn 3y ago
  Taiwan is well ahead of Japan and SK in terms of GDP PPP, which takes into account the cost of living in the country. In fact, Taiwan is closing in on the US as well.[0] If we base it on GDP PPP, then Japan and SK are actually 10-20 years behind Taiwan. The work moved from Japan to Taiwan simply because TSMC beat the competition out. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)...
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    PPP and anything Per Capita isn't a convincing metric. They are productivity metrics (aka how much shit a country can produce) GDP is just a measurement of how much shit a country produces a year. GDP per Capita is a measurement of how much shit is produced per entire population - from a 5 month old toddler to a 92 year old geriatric. GDP PPP is a lossy transformation of GDP into supposed "international dollars" that have varying calculations and are based on the (imo flawed) assumption that goods can be substituted. GDP PPP Per Capita is dividing that flawed transformation across the entire population. > because TSMC beat the competition out Because American and Japanese companies in the 2000s viewed the foundry model as commodified and a race to the bottom, like battery tech (eg. BYD), and as such decided to divest and let much poorer/less well compensated Koreans and Taiwanese work on it in the 2000s. This is why GlobalFoundries exists. AMD was falling drastically behind Intel in the 2000s because their foundries were a massive operational expense preventing them from investing in R&D. As such, AMD divested their fabs into a PE funded company called GlobalFoundaries in 2009 Japanese companies did the same thing, creating joint ventures or gaining controlling stakes in Chinese, Taiwanese, and Korean conglomerates while transferring commodified IP. This is how CATL was formed by Japanese TDK, BYD by Samsung's cellphone battery division (yes they're Korean but same story), and others
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      >GDP is just a measurement of how much shit a country produces a year. No, it's a measure of much money goes through the economy, regardless if any "shit" is produced there. Look at Ireland, Netherlands and Luxembourg or any other tax heaven.
      - alephnerd 3y ago
        Services are production as well. Or are you saying that any dollars made selling software you wrote is useless?
        FirmwareBurner 3y ago
- puppymaster 3y ago
  having spent extensive amount of time in both countries for the last 10 years, this is just categorically not true. Miles worse? Nah. At worst, on par maybe.
meindnoch 3y ago
>Having to do anything in a clean room is exhausting. I bet it would do wonders for my allergies!
- Chris2048 3y ago
  You have to isolate yourself from the CR so not to contaminate it, so I doubt that would help.
  - CuriousCosmic 3y ago
    No actually it does help quite a bit. Allergies are primarily from allergens in the air and you still breathe the same air in the clean room (just through a mask). So you are going to be breathing the air minus allergens which for people with severe allergies might be worth the extra hassle of being in a cleanroom
- barryrandall 3y ago
  You'd be trading allergies for new and exciting forms of clean room/PPE-related dermatitis.
ekianjo 3y ago
> Japanese work culture is famous for glorifying the ability to suffer for your job That may be less and less relevant for younger generations, based on what I can observe.
fendy3002 3y ago
Sorry if this sounds stupid, but can't they use robots for that kind of environment? Or if we aren't advanced enough for that yet
- alephnerd 3y ago
  Automation is expensive (a multi-million outlay). Most fabs are largely automated already, but you still need support staff to repair and QA processes, as well as scientists+engineers to R&D new processes and optimizations.
- bluGill 3y ago
  They use a lot of robots, but there are still a lot of things not automation. Robot maintenance is often a big one, though since I don't work in that environment I can't tell you what they can't do.
gottorf 3y ago
> Shintoism even puts a spiritual component to „cleanness“ Isn't this typical of many (most?) religions? "Cleanliness is next to godliness" is a common idea in Christendom.
- kristianp 3y ago
  "Cleanliness is next to godliness" Isn't that just a cliché? Christians don't see that as anywhere near the core of the religion.
  - comte7092 3y ago
    I’d agree, but then again a lot of western discussion around Japanese/eastern cultures in general revolves around cliches, so the comparison may be even more apt.
hcarvalhoalves 3y ago
I find these cultural arguments weak, and kind of a cliché when talking about Asia. There are straightforward reasons for Japan to be attractive: - Yen is cheap, at a 20-year low - Developed infrastructure - Attracts immigrant workers in search of better living standards - Open to immigration for workers in manual labour jobs - The wages at Taiwan (and China) are reaching parity with other countries
- subtra3t 3y ago
  I've never been to Japan, but from what I've heard there is little scope for promotion in Japan's economy for immigrants, so I don't think the openness to immigration for manual labour jobs is a plus point for Japan when most immigrants may only find work in low paying gaijin-friendly industries (translator, teacher, etc) or MNCs with offices in Japan. But then again that impression is based solely on information found on the Internet and may be incorrect.
  - hcarvalhoalves 3y ago
    > from what I've heard there is little scope for promotion in Japan's economy for immigrants Japan receives a steady influx of immigrants working on manual labour since the 80s - notoriously, from countries with large Japanese descendant populations like Brazil, Peru. In the past, it was common for these workers to live frugal lives and make some savings before emigrating back. With the current Yen, today's workers go after better standards of living compared to their home countries.
atleastoptimal 3y ago
The Gladwellian view is that rice farming discipline for thousands of years have made Asia perfect for manufacturing.

alephnerd 3y ago

It moved to Taiwan (and SK) from Japan because Japanese graduated from that kind of work culture. The work culture in Taiwan (and SK) is miles worse than Japan today - which makes sense as both are around 10-20 years behind Japan Median household income in Japan is around $48k [0], around $33k in SK [1], and Taiwan's I can't find but is around $28-34k based on median wage ($16k) [2] SK+TW have entered a similar doldrums to JP around 15-20 years ago, and just like how JP began outsourcing manufacturing to China, ASEAN (mostly Thailand), and India in the 2000s, SK+TW have started doing the same (Vietnam for SK, Taiwan hasn't found a major ASEAN partner yet) [0] - https://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/kakei/156n.html https://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/kakei/156n.html [1] - https://m-en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20231123001600320 https://m-en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20231123001600320 [2] - https://focustaiwan.tw/business/202312010011 https://focustaiwan.tw/business/202312010011

aurareturn 3y ago
Taiwan is well ahead of Japan and SK in terms of GDP PPP, which takes into account the cost of living in the country. In fact, Taiwan is closing in on the US as well.[0] If we base it on GDP PPP, then Japan and SK are actually 10-20 years behind Taiwan. The work moved from Japan to Taiwan simply because TSMC beat the competition out. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)...
- alephnerd 3y ago
  PPP and anything Per Capita isn't a convincing metric. They are productivity metrics (aka how much shit a country can produce) GDP is just a measurement of how much shit a country produces a year. GDP per Capita is a measurement of how much shit is produced per entire population - from a 5 month old toddler to a 92 year old geriatric. GDP PPP is a lossy transformation of GDP into supposed "international dollars" that have varying calculations and are based on the (imo flawed) assumption that goods can be substituted. GDP PPP Per Capita is dividing that flawed transformation across the entire population. > because TSMC beat the competition out Because American and Japanese companies in the 2000s viewed the foundry model as commodified and a race to the bottom, like battery tech (eg. BYD), and as such decided to divest and let much poorer/less well compensated Koreans and Taiwanese work on it in the 2000s. This is why GlobalFoundries exists. AMD was falling drastically behind Intel in the 2000s because their foundries were a massive operational expense preventing them from investing in R&D. As such, AMD divested their fabs into a PE funded company called GlobalFoundaries in 2009 Japanese companies did the same thing, creating joint ventures or gaining controlling stakes in Chinese, Taiwanese, and Korean conglomerates while transferring commodified IP. This is how CATL was formed by Japanese TDK, BYD by Samsung's cellphone battery division (yes they're Korean but same story), and others
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >GDP is just a measurement of how much shit a country produces a year. No, it's a measure of much money goes through the economy, regardless if any "shit" is produced there. Look at Ireland, Netherlands and Luxembourg or any other tax heaven.
    - alephnerd 3y ago
      Services are production as well. Or are you saying that any dollars made selling software you wrote is useless?
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
puppymaster 3y ago
having spent extensive amount of time in both countries for the last 10 years, this is just categorically not true. Miles worse? Nah. At worst, on par maybe.

meindnoch 3y ago

>Having to do anything in a clean room is exhausting. I bet it would do wonders for my allergies!

Chris2048 3y ago
You have to isolate yourself from the CR so not to contaminate it, so I doubt that would help.
- CuriousCosmic 3y ago
  No actually it does help quite a bit. Allergies are primarily from allergens in the air and you still breathe the same air in the clean room (just through a mask). So you are going to be breathing the air minus allergens which for people with severe allergies might be worth the extra hassle of being in a cleanroom
barryrandall 3y ago
You'd be trading allergies for new and exciting forms of clean room/PPE-related dermatitis.

ekianjo 3y ago

> Japanese work culture is famous for glorifying the ability to suffer for your job That may be less and less relevant for younger generations, based on what I can observe.

fendy3002 3y ago

Sorry if this sounds stupid, but can't they use robots for that kind of environment? Or if we aren't advanced enough for that yet

alephnerd 3y ago
Automation is expensive (a multi-million outlay). Most fabs are largely automated already, but you still need support staff to repair and QA processes, as well as scientists+engineers to R&D new processes and optimizations.
bluGill 3y ago
They use a lot of robots, but there are still a lot of things not automation. Robot maintenance is often a big one, though since I don't work in that environment I can't tell you what they can't do.

gottorf 3y ago

> Shintoism even puts a spiritual component to „cleanness“ Isn't this typical of many (most?) religions? "Cleanliness is next to godliness" is a common idea in Christendom.

kristianp 3y ago
"Cleanliness is next to godliness" Isn't that just a cliché? Christians don't see that as anywhere near the core of the religion.
- comte7092 3y ago
  I’d agree, but then again a lot of western discussion around Japanese/eastern cultures in general revolves around cliches, so the comparison may be even more apt.

hcarvalhoalves 3y ago

I find these cultural arguments weak, and kind of a cliché when talking about Asia. There are straightforward reasons for Japan to be attractive: - Yen is cheap, at a 20-year low - Developed infrastructure - Attracts immigrant workers in search of better living standards - Open to immigration for workers in manual labour jobs - The wages at Taiwan (and China) are reaching parity with other countries

subtra3t 3y ago
I've never been to Japan, but from what I've heard there is little scope for promotion in Japan's economy for immigrants, so I don't think the openness to immigration for manual labour jobs is a plus point for Japan when most immigrants may only find work in low paying gaijin-friendly industries (translator, teacher, etc) or MNCs with offices in Japan. But then again that impression is based solely on information found on the Internet and may be incorrect.
- hcarvalhoalves 3y ago
  > from what I've heard there is little scope for promotion in Japan's economy for immigrants Japan receives a steady influx of immigrants working on manual labour since the 80s - notoriously, from countries with large Japanese descendant populations like Brazil, Peru. In the past, it was common for these workers to live frugal lives and make some savings before emigrating back. With the current Yen, today's workers go after better standards of living compared to their home countries.

atleastoptimal 3y ago

The Gladwellian view is that rice farming discipline for thousands of years have made Asia perfect for manufacturing.