7 ms·

ADHD may have been an evolutionary advantage, research suggests

59 points by cromulent 3y ago

selfmodruntime 3y ago
I find that 10mg of a Concerta derivative make me enjoy the positive aspects of my disorder -- ADHD inattentive type -- while preventing the negatives. I was already a working adult when I first tried medicating and it's been a life changing experience. I take one dose on a weekday morning when I have to concentrate on manual tasks and I skip the dose when I want to use more of my imagination for concept and idea gathering.
- corobo 3y ago
  Outside of the dosage, seconding this! Also inattentive flavoured ADHD. 70mg Elvanse usually allows me to be a productive day to day person, skipping the dose on Saturdays is where I let myself freely roam the internet and tinker with new software, languages, systems, coming up with fiction, coming up with sketches for a TV show that will probably never see the light of day, etc. Sundays get a dose as normal but I use that for housework and the likes. I've been brushing up on Kubernetes most recently, I don't need it anywhere right now but who knows where it (or the concepts in and around it) will come up. Also it's kinda cool honestly :) It's the best of both worlds.. as best as I have got it so far in 35 years anyway, not perfect, but it mostly works - I can earn enough to survive without having to actually forage in bushes, and I get to learn stuff that's interesting but not immediately useful for that all-natural dopamine fix. The not immediately useful stuff often combines with future problems and becomes a "genius" solution, haha. If you ever want to be called a genius all you have to do is plug two seemingly separate things you know into each other.
  - SushiHippie 3y ago
    How long does 70mg Elvanse last for you?
    - corobo 3y ago
      Generally I feel like my brain is winding down at around 11pm usually, after taking them somewhere between 7 and 9am (depending on when I pick up my phone and see the reminder to take them) Every so often I swear they've chucked a few placebos in there and I still manage to get nothing done, but aye a decent ~12 hours or so of focus/dopamine most days
      - SushiHippie 3y ago
        This sounds great, wish it was like this for me... > Every so often I swear they've chucked a few placebos in there and I still manage to get nothing done, but aye a decent ~12 hours or so of focus/dopamine most days Perfect, I'm not the only who experiences this haha
        corobo 3y ago
        It did take a fair bit of trial and error with different meds and dosages to find the one that actually seemed to do something - if the medication isn't working it's definitely worth reporting back to the doctor prescribing to see what the next option is
  - RockCoach 3y ago
    How do you handle falling asleep in the evening? While my Elvanse dose is merely half of yours it always seems to affect my nervous system for much too long, keeping me unable to sleep before 3am on weekdays on the average.
    - corobo 3y ago
      Sleep is a wobbly one aye. Some nights no bother at all - I've been getting way more of these nights on meds than off, others it'll be a 3am one (2-3am has been my norm for as long as I can remember so it's not made it worse as such), and on the odd occasion I'll keep myself busy with something all night and do a double day. Unfortunately no solid answer there, I take the meds first thing in the morning and hope I'll be able get to sleep later. Fortunately (for me) this has been my norm for as long as I can remember either way so at least nothing is worse!
      - RockCoach 3y ago
        > I take the meds first thing in the morning and hope I'll be able get to sleep later. This has been my crutch as well, basically setting an alarm for an hour earlier than I need to get up at, taking the pill from the nighstand and then trying to get back to sleep before having to get up for real at 7am.
- herbst 3y ago
  My partner tried a lot (and went trough weird other diagnosis) and found her solution in simple dextroamphetamine. It's a life changer for her and our relationship as well :) also very cheap as it's no protected substance. Around here many are deemed to get ritalin first or other similarly weird substances which has way more side effects for some than good ol' amphetamine.
  - neom 3y ago
    I was on Adderall for about 10 years, when I moved to Asia I discovered 'amphs are banned, so they put me on Ritalin. Holy mother of god how people tolerate that stuff is beyond me. Over the course of an hour, I'd oscillate between wanting to go to the gym, anger, and horny. Had to discontinue using it for fear I'd kill someone during the anger phase. I've tried many substanced but I gotta say... Ritalin is high on the list of weird drugs for me.
    - selfmodruntime 3y ago
      Crossing my fingers. My drugstore didn‘t have Metylphinidat, so I had to go for ritalin. Trying it next week.
      - neom 3y ago
        If you remember, lmk how it goes, very curious how others react to it.
        firecall 3y ago
        I find Ritalin to be great and works well for me. None of the issues you described! But totally get it - some meds do weird things to some people! Hope you find a treatment that works for you!
      - firecall 3y ago
        Where do you live where they can just swap out medications like that? I live in Australia and have a Ritalin prescription, but I could t swap it for another drug if they were out! Curious to know!
faeriechangling 3y ago
I never thought ADHD was evolutionary maladaptive, this is a condition which makes you more likely to blow off work and have unprotected sex. It's treated as a mental illness and disorder because those with it are less economically productive and experience more distress than most people.
- mpldr 3y ago
  > makes you more likely to […] have unprotected sex As someone with ADD, I wish I could agree. Adding to that, ADD can also be reasonably economically productive if the field of work aligns with the requirements of the condition. IT usually happens to be one of them. Productive squirrel chasing, if you like. Just work on a different issue for a bit, learn something new, etc.
  - RockCoach 3y ago
    As a person with diagnosed ADHD and employed (but struggling) in the IT field, I often think I would truly excel as a waste picker.
- sjducb 3y ago
  Right now the strongest selection pressure on humans is for ppl who have “irresponsible” unprotected sex. Sensible people who use birth control are failing to reproduce.
ikekkdcjkfke 3y ago
I think most traits give either an evolutionary advantage to you or your group
- RockCoach 3y ago
  According to your opinion, which evolutionary advantage would something like bipolar disorder or schizophrenia provide to your group?
  - hoseja 3y ago
    Religion.
    - RockCoach 3y ago
      Interesting thought. More than once I've heard the theory that the prophets of old (Moses, Jesus, Muhammad etc.), were actually schizophrenics and hearing voices. Only due to the superstition of the time they sometimes became regarded as holy men (or women like the case of Jeanne d'Arc) instead of being shunned, or, as we do it today, treated and medicated in order to suppress the symptoms.
      - gtroja 3y ago
        https://news.stanford.edu/2014/07/16/voices-culture-luhrmann-071614/ https://news.stanford.edu/2014/07/16/voices-culture-luhrmann... Maybe they have a way to listen what a culture says but nobody else listens
  - pwdisswordfishc 3y ago
    "It's not paranoia when they're really out to get you"
  - subjectsigma 3y ago
    Someone posted an article a while ago that claimed the ratio of people with ADHD, autism, etc. lined up with Dunbar’s number (the theoretical preferred size of a social group) so that there would be about one individual per group with these traits. The article then went on to theorize that this was an evolutionary adaptation against total conformity. Even if everyone else doesn’t see the landslide in the distance the one weirdo might. I can’t find the article after searching on hn.algolia.com but IIRC there was no real evidence for this, it was just a theory.
mo_42 3y ago
I think this is a good example of how we mix up concepts: ADHD is just a phenotype. Then, our society classifies it as a condition because it does not go well with current circumstances. Although, both are separate things.
- gtroja 3y ago
  I feel adhd is only a diagnosis beacause society demands to much attention/focus; I've once told my therapist if flying was required to be part of the society my diagnosis would be unwinged
  - dartos 3y ago
    It’d probably be more like, most people have wings and not having wings negatively affects the lives of most wingless people, so it’s a disorder.
- raccoonDivider 3y ago
  Is there an actual consensus on what ADHD _is_, besides a catch-all for some common concentration and hyperactivity symptoms? People online assert a lot of things, such as "it's a dysfunction of dopamine pathways", "it's genetic", "it's a sort of autism", "it's a brain chemistry problem". But never anything that looked like a real definition backed by good science. My own psychiatrist's diagnosis was a bunch of obvious questions that I couldn't answer honestly even if I tried. The conversation boils down to: "I have trouble concentrating and wonder if I have ADHD, I have [common symptoms backed by anecdotal evidence]. - OK, they have to affect your life severely enough to qualify. Do you think they are? - I guess, that's what I'm here to find out. - OK, let's try Ritalin." It was only helpful in that I needed to focus during a semester of studies and the stimulants did it. It feels like I had a cough, got diagnosed with cough syndrome, and went through cough medications until they started helping the cough, and now I can describe myself as a cough syndrome sufferer. Where's the virus?
  - navjack27 3y ago
    It's less hyperactivity and concentration and more motivation issues
nraynaud 3y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRrvUGjRVsc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRrvUGjRVsc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORq8VNIjDRA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORq8VNIjDRA there are some strong suggestions that those traits have been selected against quite a few times.
systemd 3y ago
A friend of mine runs a number of London psych clinics, focusing on ADHD. In a recent discussion we compared ADHD to the explorers and inventors throughout history. The aversion to the status quo and the appetite for risk are not always good for the individual but the rewards for the group may be huge if there is success.
- llamaLord 3y ago
  This has always been my theory (as someone with the condition). The human species has benefitted greatly from having 3-4% of us being constantly restless and always NEEDING to know "what new thing can we do NOW!!"
doix 3y ago
I really wish there was some accurate physiological test that could be used to determine if you had ADHD or not. I _strongly_ suspect I have it. As a child I could never "focus". My parents being academics from the USSR didn't "believe" in it, they just kept forcing me to sit still and study until I did. Eventually, I got slightly better at sitting still and "focusing". I would (and still do) fidget like crazy, either pen spinning, tapping my feet, rocking back and forth while "focusing". Focusing was just me quickly switching between what I was supposed to be doing and anything else, back and forth. The upside is now I am basically "immune" to distractions, I can always reply to slack/my girlfriend/whatsapp messages/alerts/PR feedback/emails/questions and then go back to what I was doing 5 seconds ago without any issues. I've probably switched between this comment box and coding 20 times at this point. I tried getting an adult diagnosis in the UK to see if maybe "proper drugs" would be helpful, but was just told politely to fuck off by the GP. The reasoning was that I have a job in tech, so even if I had ADHD, it's not bad enough to warrant any treatment. Lots of coffee and listening to "hardstyle" or any music with high BPM seems to help me focus.
- sudosysgen 3y ago
  Hey, I have had almost exactly the same experience, from the childhood experienice down to the music. For me, the functional impairment was also in things outside work, which is eventually how I got someone to refer me to a neuropsychiatrist for the full battery of tests. The treatment ended up being very helpful, but mostly for my personal life and general health.
- AmalgatedAmoeba 3y ago
  It’s not a disorder if it’s not sufficiently disruptive :-) There are no absolutes in psychology.
- nucleardog 3y ago
  > I tried getting an adult diagnosis in the UK to see if maybe "proper drugs" would be helpful, but was just told politely to fuck off by the GP. The reasoning was that I have a job in tech, so even if I had ADHD, it's not bad enough to warrant any treatment. Lots of coffee and listening to "hardstyle" or any music with high BPM seems to help me focus. If you're ever looking to chase that down again, having a successful career shouldn't preclude you from being "impaired" enough to be treated for ADHD, but you need to emphasize _how_ your life is negatively impacted to give the GP, Psychologist, or anyone else involved the justification they need to diagnose and treat you. (And if you already did this, well, maybe another doctor?) When I was diagnosed my being relatively successful was definitely some points against, but really high level I was able to explain: - That I had recently switched jobs, the previous behaviours _are_ impacting my work, and here's exactly how. - Detailed some of the challenges I faced in my day-to-day life personally and how it was impacting my family. - For questions where I am not particularly impaired, where possible I explained the coping strategies I use in order to, y'know, function, but obviously that this was still stressful and difficult for me. The psychologist had no issue diagnosing me with ADHD and recommending my GP prescribe me medication. He was not surprised to hear that over a few decades I'd managed to develop one or two coping strategies, and the strategies I'd explained were actually consistent with an ADHD diagnosis.

59 points by cromulent 3y ago

I find that 10mg of a Concerta derivative make me enjoy the positive aspects of my disorder -- ADHD inattentive type -- while preventing the negatives. I was already a working adult when I first tried medicating and it's been a life changing experience. I take one dose on a weekday morning when I have to concentrate on manual tasks and I skip the dose when I want to use more of my imagination for concept and idea gathering.

corobo 3y ago
Outside of the dosage, seconding this! Also inattentive flavoured ADHD. 70mg Elvanse usually allows me to be a productive day to day person, skipping the dose on Saturdays is where I let myself freely roam the internet and tinker with new software, languages, systems, coming up with fiction, coming up with sketches for a TV show that will probably never see the light of day, etc. Sundays get a dose as normal but I use that for housework and the likes. I've been brushing up on Kubernetes most recently, I don't need it anywhere right now but who knows where it (or the concepts in and around it) will come up. Also it's kinda cool honestly :) It's the best of both worlds.. as best as I have got it so far in 35 years anyway, not perfect, but it mostly works - I can earn enough to survive without having to actually forage in bushes, and I get to learn stuff that's interesting but not immediately useful for that all-natural dopamine fix. The not immediately useful stuff often combines with future problems and becomes a "genius" solution, haha. If you ever want to be called a genius all you have to do is plug two seemingly separate things you know into each other.
- SushiHippie 3y ago
  How long does 70mg Elvanse last for you?
  - corobo 3y ago
    Generally I feel like my brain is winding down at around 11pm usually, after taking them somewhere between 7 and 9am (depending on when I pick up my phone and see the reminder to take them) Every so often I swear they've chucked a few placebos in there and I still manage to get nothing done, but aye a decent ~12 hours or so of focus/dopamine most days
    - SushiHippie 3y ago
      This sounds great, wish it was like this for me... > Every so often I swear they've chucked a few placebos in there and I still manage to get nothing done, but aye a decent ~12 hours or so of focus/dopamine most days Perfect, I'm not the only who experiences this haha
      - corobo 3y ago
        It did take a fair bit of trial and error with different meds and dosages to find the one that actually seemed to do something - if the medication isn't working it's definitely worth reporting back to the doctor prescribing to see what the next option is
- RockCoach 3y ago
  How do you handle falling asleep in the evening? While my Elvanse dose is merely half of yours it always seems to affect my nervous system for much too long, keeping me unable to sleep before 3am on weekdays on the average.
  - corobo 3y ago
    Sleep is a wobbly one aye. Some nights no bother at all - I've been getting way more of these nights on meds than off, others it'll be a 3am one (2-3am has been my norm for as long as I can remember so it's not made it worse as such), and on the odd occasion I'll keep myself busy with something all night and do a double day. Unfortunately no solid answer there, I take the meds first thing in the morning and hope I'll be able get to sleep later. Fortunately (for me) this has been my norm for as long as I can remember either way so at least nothing is worse!
    - RockCoach 3y ago
      > I take the meds first thing in the morning and hope I'll be able get to sleep later. This has been my crutch as well, basically setting an alarm for an hour earlier than I need to get up at, taking the pill from the nighstand and then trying to get back to sleep before having to get up for real at 7am.
herbst 3y ago
My partner tried a lot (and went trough weird other diagnosis) and found her solution in simple dextroamphetamine. It's a life changer for her and our relationship as well :) also very cheap as it's no protected substance. Around here many are deemed to get ritalin first or other similarly weird substances which has way more side effects for some than good ol' amphetamine.
- neom 3y ago
  I was on Adderall for about 10 years, when I moved to Asia I discovered 'amphs are banned, so they put me on Ritalin. Holy mother of god how people tolerate that stuff is beyond me. Over the course of an hour, I'd oscillate between wanting to go to the gym, anger, and horny. Had to discontinue using it for fear I'd kill someone during the anger phase. I've tried many substanced but I gotta say... Ritalin is high on the list of weird drugs for me.
  - selfmodruntime 3y ago
    Crossing my fingers. My drugstore didn‘t have Metylphinidat, so I had to go for ritalin. Trying it next week.
    - neom 3y ago
      If you remember, lmk how it goes, very curious how others react to it.
      - firecall 3y ago
        I find Ritalin to be great and works well for me. None of the issues you described! But totally get it - some meds do weird things to some people! Hope you find a treatment that works for you!
    - firecall 3y ago
      Where do you live where they can just swap out medications like that? I live in Australia and have a Ritalin prescription, but I could t swap it for another drug if they were out! Curious to know!

faeriechangling 3y ago

I never thought ADHD was evolutionary maladaptive, this is a condition which makes you more likely to blow off work and have unprotected sex. It's treated as a mental illness and disorder because those with it are less economically productive and experience more distress than most people.

mpldr 3y ago
> makes you more likely to […] have unprotected sex As someone with ADD, I wish I could agree. Adding to that, ADD can also be reasonably economically productive if the field of work aligns with the requirements of the condition. IT usually happens to be one of them. Productive squirrel chasing, if you like. Just work on a different issue for a bit, learn something new, etc.
- RockCoach 3y ago
  As a person with diagnosed ADHD and employed (but struggling) in the IT field, I often think I would truly excel as a waste picker.
sjducb 3y ago
Right now the strongest selection pressure on humans is for ppl who have “irresponsible” unprotected sex. Sensible people who use birth control are failing to reproduce.

ikekkdcjkfke 3y ago

I think most traits give either an evolutionary advantage to you or your group

RockCoach 3y ago
According to your opinion, which evolutionary advantage would something like bipolar disorder or schizophrenia provide to your group?
- hoseja 3y ago
  Religion.
  - RockCoach 3y ago
    Interesting thought. More than once I've heard the theory that the prophets of old (Moses, Jesus, Muhammad etc.), were actually schizophrenics and hearing voices. Only due to the superstition of the time they sometimes became regarded as holy men (or women like the case of Jeanne d'Arc) instead of being shunned, or, as we do it today, treated and medicated in order to suppress the symptoms.
    - gtroja 3y ago
      https://news.stanford.edu/2014/07/16/voices-culture-luhrmann-071614/ https://news.stanford.edu/2014/07/16/voices-culture-luhrmann... Maybe they have a way to listen what a culture says but nobody else listens
- pwdisswordfishc 3y ago
  "It's not paranoia when they're really out to get you"
- subjectsigma 3y ago
  Someone posted an article a while ago that claimed the ratio of people with ADHD, autism, etc. lined up with Dunbar’s number (the theoretical preferred size of a social group) so that there would be about one individual per group with these traits. The article then went on to theorize that this was an evolutionary adaptation against total conformity. Even if everyone else doesn’t see the landslide in the distance the one weirdo might. I can’t find the article after searching on hn.algolia.com but IIRC there was no real evidence for this, it was just a theory.

mo_42 3y ago

I think this is a good example of how we mix up concepts: ADHD is just a phenotype. Then, our society classifies it as a condition because it does not go well with current circumstances. Although, both are separate things.

gtroja 3y ago
I feel adhd is only a diagnosis beacause society demands to much attention/focus; I've once told my therapist if flying was required to be part of the society my diagnosis would be unwinged
- dartos 3y ago
  It’d probably be more like, most people have wings and not having wings negatively affects the lives of most wingless people, so it’s a disorder.
raccoonDivider 3y ago
Is there an actual consensus on what ADHD _is_, besides a catch-all for some common concentration and hyperactivity symptoms? People online assert a lot of things, such as "it's a dysfunction of dopamine pathways", "it's genetic", "it's a sort of autism", "it's a brain chemistry problem". But never anything that looked like a real definition backed by good science. My own psychiatrist's diagnosis was a bunch of obvious questions that I couldn't answer honestly even if I tried. The conversation boils down to: "I have trouble concentrating and wonder if I have ADHD, I have [common symptoms backed by anecdotal evidence]. - OK, they have to affect your life severely enough to qualify. Do you think they are? - I guess, that's what I'm here to find out. - OK, let's try Ritalin." It was only helpful in that I needed to focus during a semester of studies and the stimulants did it. It feels like I had a cough, got diagnosed with cough syndrome, and went through cough medications until they started helping the cough, and now I can describe myself as a cough syndrome sufferer. Where's the virus?
- navjack27 3y ago
  It's less hyperactivity and concentration and more motivation issues

nraynaud 3y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRrvUGjRVsc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRrvUGjRVsc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORq8VNIjDRA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORq8VNIjDRA there are some strong suggestions that those traits have been selected against quite a few times.

systemd 3y ago

A friend of mine runs a number of London psych clinics, focusing on ADHD. In a recent discussion we compared ADHD to the explorers and inventors throughout history. The aversion to the status quo and the appetite for risk are not always good for the individual but the rewards for the group may be huge if there is success.

llamaLord 3y ago
This has always been my theory (as someone with the condition). The human species has benefitted greatly from having 3-4% of us being constantly restless and always NEEDING to know "what new thing can we do NOW!!"

doix 3y ago

I really wish there was some accurate physiological test that could be used to determine if you had ADHD or not. I _strongly_ suspect I have it. As a child I could never "focus". My parents being academics from the USSR didn't "believe" in it, they just kept forcing me to sit still and study until I did. Eventually, I got slightly better at sitting still and "focusing". I would (and still do) fidget like crazy, either pen spinning, tapping my feet, rocking back and forth while "focusing". Focusing was just me quickly switching between what I was supposed to be doing and anything else, back and forth. The upside is now I am basically "immune" to distractions, I can always reply to slack/my girlfriend/whatsapp messages/alerts/PR feedback/emails/questions and then go back to what I was doing 5 seconds ago without any issues. I've probably switched between this comment box and coding 20 times at this point. I tried getting an adult diagnosis in the UK to see if maybe "proper drugs" would be helpful, but was just told politely to fuck off by the GP. The reasoning was that I have a job in tech, so even if I had ADHD, it's not bad enough to warrant any treatment. Lots of coffee and listening to "hardstyle" or any music with high BPM seems to help me focus.

sudosysgen 3y ago
Hey, I have had almost exactly the same experience, from the childhood experienice down to the music. For me, the functional impairment was also in things outside work, which is eventually how I got someone to refer me to a neuropsychiatrist for the full battery of tests. The treatment ended up being very helpful, but mostly for my personal life and general health.
AmalgatedAmoeba 3y ago
It’s not a disorder if it’s not sufficiently disruptive :-) There are no absolutes in psychology.
nucleardog 3y ago
> I tried getting an adult diagnosis in the UK to see if maybe "proper drugs" would be helpful, but was just told politely to fuck off by the GP. The reasoning was that I have a job in tech, so even if I had ADHD, it's not bad enough to warrant any treatment. Lots of coffee and listening to "hardstyle" or any music with high BPM seems to help me focus. If you're ever looking to chase that down again, having a successful career shouldn't preclude you from being "impaired" enough to be treated for ADHD, but you need to emphasize _how_ your life is negatively impacted to give the GP, Psychologist, or anyone else involved the justification they need to diagnose and treat you. (And if you already did this, well, maybe another doctor?) When I was diagnosed my being relatively successful was definitely some points against, but really high level I was able to explain: - That I had recently switched jobs, the previous behaviours _are_ impacting my work, and here's exactly how. - Detailed some of the challenges I faced in my day-to-day life personally and how it was impacting my family. - For questions where I am not particularly impaired, where possible I explained the coping strategies I use in order to, y'know, function, but obviously that this was still stressful and difficult for me. The psychologist had no issue diagnosing me with ADHD and recommending my GP prescribe me medication. He was not surprised to hear that over a few decades I'd managed to develop one or two coping strategies, and the strategies I'd explained were actually consistent with an ADHD diagnosis.