5 ms·

Well, basically, most applications that you want to write are basically 90 percent rdbms with a thin layer on top for the views (usually php etc.). The 'power'

Well, basically, most applications that you want to write are basically 90 percent rdbms with a thin layer on top for the views (usually php etc.). The 'power' of lisp isn't relevant. Other types of applications are usually performance critical and written in c etc, or glue code written in languages with libraries tcl/perl/python etc. So basically the traditional niche of lisp, complex apps, has been replaced by sql. There are apps written in lisp, like this site for example, but that's just for vanity mainly (pg is famous for his lisp books) - it would be have been easier to write it in sql.

oskarth 14y ago
What on earth are you talking about? Are you a SQL consultant or a professional Troll or what am I missing here?
- bOR_ 14y ago
  He's a big data consultant, and all he has is a hammer :-).
- marshallp 14y ago
  I've explained a bit longer than your 'wtf'. Perhaps you can explain to me applications where lisp is the best fit? Almost every website or software running a business I can think of runs sql. The very small few that don't, google for example, run on c++ and assembly. So, in 2012, with gigs of ram and postgres, why would I use lisp?
  - KeithMajhor 14y ago
    I think Twitter is using Clojure now that they've acquired BackType.
  - espeed 14y ago
    Dude, you advertised on here 36 days ago that you are a Lisp contractor (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3784418 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3784418) -- WTF?
    - marshallp 14y ago
      Why WTF! I'm looking for AI type work, which is much much rarer than sql work, which was my point. You wouldn't use lisp for that either (matlab/numpy followed by c optimizations is used there).
      - espeed 14y ago
        Because 1 hour ago you said: Why not just do relational programming - prolog or sql. The lisp weenies still don't get it. And now you've peppered the entire thread with non sequiturs and off-the-wall droppings. Please take a break.
        marshallp 14y ago
        I'll plead WTF on that. I'm simply trying to tell the kids on here that SQL is great and ROR/LISP/NoSQL worship around these parts is misguided. No 'droppings' in that. Yes, I write Lisp on my resume to make me look like a stronger candidate. I learnt it a few years ago for fun, that's all (I'm not a lisp flip-flopper). Just want to put the advice out there to be a relational weenie (instead of lisp weenie).
        mquander 14y ago
        What planet do you live on? Your comments are comprised entirely of droppings. This post had nothing to do with any of those topics until you arrived; it's about a way to abstract operations over collections of data that has some cool properties. You then came in unprompted and attempted to troll the whole world about your pet peeve. If you have something to say about the actual post, then please say it. Otherwise, get out.
        scott_s 14y ago
        Your point is a complete non-sequitur in this thread. Lumping Ruby on Rails, Lisp and NoSQL together is non-sensical. One is a framework for building web applications, the other is a family of programming languages with over 50 years of history, and "NoSQL" is a bad name for highly scalable data storage methods which abandon the relational model.
  - bOR_ 14y ago
    Because many programmers are not in the website business. I'm a scientist, working with long-term simulation models. My problem is trying to find a good model representation of the data that I observe. I keep my eyes open towards probabilistic relational programming languages (such as http://www.openbugs.info http://www.openbugs.info ), but so far I haven't found a way to apply it to my work. Lisp is useful to me (more useful than ruby or C was), predominantly because I can work with emacs/swank/slime and change and query my program while I'm observing its output.
    - marshallp 14y ago
      How come you're not using matlab/numpy?
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
th0ma5 14y ago
I think you have a good spirit to what you're saying. Everything is Turing Complete here, and yes with views and stored procedures and the like, and normalizing everything most apps would indeed just be a thin layer over top of these forms. However, set theory isn't exclusive to tables, nor even tree or document stores, and often with online systems like how a previous person mentioned Storm, you might not have the luxury of the overhead of a whole interpreted SQL stack, but may only need linked lists or something more bare, and closer to logic. I think you're not being downvoted on merit of the idea, just perhaps the quickness as classifying this work, even if it is correct, as something that is just more of the same. Everything in computers is arguably just more of the same. Just my opinion!
brlewis 14y ago
Even when all you need is a thin layer over SQL, a language with macros helps you keep your code cleaner, e.g. http://brl.codesimply.net/brl_4.html#SEC31 http://brl.codesimply.net/brl_4.html#SEC31
Ingaz 14y ago
I applaude your attempt to say that SQL is "real world FP". But you made your claim too big. SQL (even with recursive CTE) is still just a DSL for relational data. Even more: DSL for relational data only.

oskarth 14y ago

What on earth are you talking about? Are you a SQL consultant or a professional Troll or what am I missing here?

bOR_ 14y ago
He's a big data consultant, and all he has is a hammer :-).
marshallp 14y ago
I've explained a bit longer than your 'wtf'. Perhaps you can explain to me applications where lisp is the best fit? Almost every website or software running a business I can think of runs sql. The very small few that don't, google for example, run on c++ and assembly. So, in 2012, with gigs of ram and postgres, why would I use lisp?
- KeithMajhor 14y ago
  I think Twitter is using Clojure now that they've acquired BackType.
- espeed 14y ago
  Dude, you advertised on here 36 days ago that you are a Lisp contractor (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3784418 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3784418) -- WTF?
  - marshallp 14y ago
    Why WTF! I'm looking for AI type work, which is much much rarer than sql work, which was my point. You wouldn't use lisp for that either (matlab/numpy followed by c optimizations is used there).
    - espeed 14y ago
      Because 1 hour ago you said: Why not just do relational programming - prolog or sql. The lisp weenies still don't get it. And now you've peppered the entire thread with non sequiturs and off-the-wall droppings. Please take a break.
      - marshallp 14y ago
        I'll plead WTF on that. I'm simply trying to tell the kids on here that SQL is great and ROR/LISP/NoSQL worship around these parts is misguided. No 'droppings' in that. Yes, I write Lisp on my resume to make me look like a stronger candidate. I learnt it a few years ago for fun, that's all (I'm not a lisp flip-flopper). Just want to put the advice out there to be a relational weenie (instead of lisp weenie).
        mquander 14y ago
        What planet do you live on? Your comments are comprised entirely of droppings. This post had nothing to do with any of those topics until you arrived; it's about a way to abstract operations over collections of data that has some cool properties. You then came in unprompted and attempted to troll the whole world about your pet peeve. If you have something to say about the actual post, then please say it. Otherwise, get out.
        scott_s 14y ago
        Your point is a complete non-sequitur in this thread. Lumping Ruby on Rails, Lisp and NoSQL together is non-sensical. One is a framework for building web applications, the other is a family of programming languages with over 50 years of history, and "NoSQL" is a bad name for highly scalable data storage methods which abandon the relational model.
- bOR_ 14y ago
  Because many programmers are not in the website business. I'm a scientist, working with long-term simulation models. My problem is trying to find a good model representation of the data that I observe. I keep my eyes open towards probabilistic relational programming languages (such as http://www.openbugs.info http://www.openbugs.info ), but so far I haven't found a way to apply it to my work. Lisp is useful to me (more useful than ruby or C was), predominantly because I can work with emacs/swank/slime and change and query my program while I'm observing its output.
  - marshallp 14y ago
    How come you're not using matlab/numpy?
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]

th0ma5 14y ago

I think you have a good spirit to what you're saying. Everything is Turing Complete here, and yes with views and stored procedures and the like, and normalizing everything most apps would indeed just be a thin layer over top of these forms. However, set theory isn't exclusive to tables, nor even tree or document stores, and often with online systems like how a previous person mentioned Storm, you might not have the luxury of the overhead of a whole interpreted SQL stack, but may only need linked lists or something more bare, and closer to logic. I think you're not being downvoted on merit of the idea, just perhaps the quickness as classifying this work, even if it is correct, as something that is just more of the same. Everything in computers is arguably just more of the same. Just my opinion!

brlewis 14y ago

Even when all you need is a thin layer over SQL, a language with macros helps you keep your code cleaner, e.g. http://brl.codesimply.net/brl_4.html#SEC31 http://brl.codesimply.net/brl_4.html#SEC31

Ingaz 14y ago

I applaude your attempt to say that SQL is "real world FP". But you made your claim too big. SQL (even with recursive CTE) is still just a DSL for relational data. Even more: DSL for relational data only.