5 ms·

I love how the user made "Microsoft is spying on users of its AI tools" from "Microsoft found out that hostile governments of authoritarian countries use their

I love how the user made "Microsoft is spying on users of its AI tools" from "Microsoft found out that hostile governments of authoritarian countries use their AI tools to conduct illegal activities" and forgot that you legit have to click "Yes, I agree" under the terms and conditions that state they indeed do track all this stuff. Next up, "Major television broadcasters spy on soccer players during Champions League games".

hef19898 3y ago
Can I use those tools without clicking on "Yes"?
- bilekas 3y ago
  Can you drive your own car without a key ? You don't have a 'right' to use the services. So the answer to your question is "It depends if the service lets you, so 9/10 cases, no. Rightly so" Edit : I can see a lot of people don't like this. But like it or not, right or wrong, that is how it is. Expecting anything else is just fanciful.
  - arp242 3y ago
    Informed consent is key. Do they clearly inform you of this when using these tools or is it hidden in a dense Privacy Policy somewhere with language so vague and woolly most people hardly understand it, which you "accepted" when you first installed Windows? I don't have a Windows machine and didn't check, but I'm guessing it's a lot closer to the second than the first. In principle I don't think anything is "wrong" with keeping a record of AI chat sessions, but you do need to know about it so you can modify your behaviour as you see fit (i.e. ask different questions). If there's a camera pointed at you then some might decide that the nose is best left unpicked and those balls will have to remain unscratched. This is really the problem with a lot of these things: not that they're doing these things as such, but that it's so hidden and obfuscated that you need to spend an hour or more trying to understand it, and even then you only know what they "may" do, not what they "actually" do – a lot of these privacy policies are so vague and full of qualified language that they "may" do almost anything. And even in recording conversations there's nuance. Is this recorded with your full account detail, or is that information stripped? Are all conversations recorded or only some? Etc. etc.
    - Geisterde 3y ago
      >Informed consent is key sounds nice
      - arp242 3y ago
        If you want to say something then say it instead of leaving weird cryptic comments. Otherwise don't post anything.
        barrysteve 3y ago
        There's nothing cryptic about his post. He'a referring to an idea that sounds nice in theory and doesn't work in practice. It's a common English phrase. And the phrase works well, the concept of informed concept sounds good in theory and never works in practice. Anyone who has observed tech companies for decades knows they don't ask for your consent before they make any consequential changes. Tech companies do whatever they want until they get sued or regulated. It's always been this way.
        Nullabillity 3y ago
        Read arp's comment again. The "consent" under those premises isn't valid, because it was neither informed nor freely given.
        Geisterde 3y ago
        My appologies. I think informed consent is a wonderful idea, I just am skeptical that it exists in real life. I would say if you use an electronic device today, you are being spied on (with very narrow exceptions). Informed consent to me (take the example of a phone or many apps), based on the level I have to break it down to people for them to understand, is something like "we will see you whacking it to hentai, we will know when you take a dump, we have enough of your data to derive private information you never gave us, we have all the data necessary to totally ruin your life socially and economically, and it will all be leaked to criminals that will profit from your demise, dont worry though, we will give you a 1 year sub to mcafee antivirus as a consolation prize." I think we can at least agree that ^^that happens to people. So, whos going to be the first company to not veat around the bush and just admit that reality? That, is why I say informed consent sounds nice, every company that can keep a skilled contract lawyer on payroll has an incentive to downplay their spying. I dont know in what version of reality informed consent could exist, because the incentive is fairly obvious.
  - int_19h 3y ago
    You don't. But it means that the title of the story is correct as worded: if you do use those tools, you are getting spied on. The fact that you're warned about that somewhere in the TOS doesn't change the fact, and the story is basically correct.
    - educaysean 3y ago
      I think the word "spy" is problematic here because one might assume that the subject being spied on must be unaware of the fact, otherwise you no longer qualify as "being spied on".
      - Geisterde 3y ago
        The government doesnt spy on its cotizens, because the citizens know they are being spied on?
        anp 3y ago
        I hate that states do this, but yeah it’s called “surveillance” when legitimized by norms, statute, and precedent.
        pbhjpbhj 3y ago
        It's called surveillance _to_ legitimise it.
  - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
    That's actually a fantastic example of the difference between actually owning something and not: I am absolutely allowed to modify my car in any way I please, including installing a ignition bypass.
r721 3y ago
Not even a random "user", but Bruce Schneier!
- tuwtuwtuwtuw 3y ago
  Who also helpfully linked to his pages on Facebook and Twitter. I'm sure those never "spy" on their users.
  - mixmastamyk 3y ago
    ”Yet you participate in society. I am very intelligent.”. ;-)
    - tuwtuwtuwtuw 3y ago
      I'm not sure how to interpret that. I just found it a bit ironic to make a post about Microsoft "spying" while marketing Facebook/Twitter.
      - mixmastamyk 3y ago
        It’s a well known ‘gotcha tactic. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-somewhat https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-som...
nonrandomstring 3y ago
> Next up, "Major television broadcasters spy on soccer players during Champions League games". I strongly agree with you that this story is a nothingburger. But as I note your reaction, I take a different interpretation. The implication that statements like "Microsoft spies on X" are truisms, is the news. We obviously all now accept as a given that these are tautologies. In other words "Spies spy on X" -> (is to say) "Microsoft = spies", not just in this sentence/context, but in all contexts. Terms, conditions, legality, illegality, hostility or friendliness all recede into irrelevance hereafter.
probably_satan 3y ago
Not to mention Microsoft intentionally built their AI lab in China haha. Bananas.
- bastardoperator 3y ago
  You're referring to an office/lab they built in 1998, lol. Pretty sure they bought in on this latest round...
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
JeremyNT 3y ago
Just because it's obvious to us doesn't mean it's obvious to everybody. The alarmist headline is warranted, and the fact that it's common doesn't make it acceptable. I welcome more awareness of this kind of lopsided ToS that enables such user hostile actions.

hef19898 3y ago

Can I use those tools without clicking on "Yes"?

bilekas 3y ago
Can you drive your own car without a key ? You don't have a 'right' to use the services. So the answer to your question is "It depends if the service lets you, so 9/10 cases, no. Rightly so" Edit : I can see a lot of people don't like this. But like it or not, right or wrong, that is how it is. Expecting anything else is just fanciful.
- arp242 3y ago
  Informed consent is key. Do they clearly inform you of this when using these tools or is it hidden in a dense Privacy Policy somewhere with language so vague and woolly most people hardly understand it, which you "accepted" when you first installed Windows? I don't have a Windows machine and didn't check, but I'm guessing it's a lot closer to the second than the first. In principle I don't think anything is "wrong" with keeping a record of AI chat sessions, but you do need to know about it so you can modify your behaviour as you see fit (i.e. ask different questions). If there's a camera pointed at you then some might decide that the nose is best left unpicked and those balls will have to remain unscratched. This is really the problem with a lot of these things: not that they're doing these things as such, but that it's so hidden and obfuscated that you need to spend an hour or more trying to understand it, and even then you only know what they "may" do, not what they "actually" do – a lot of these privacy policies are so vague and full of qualified language that they "may" do almost anything. And even in recording conversations there's nuance. Is this recorded with your full account detail, or is that information stripped? Are all conversations recorded or only some? Etc. etc.
  - Geisterde 3y ago
    >Informed consent is key sounds nice
    - arp242 3y ago
      If you want to say something then say it instead of leaving weird cryptic comments. Otherwise don't post anything.
      - barrysteve 3y ago
        There's nothing cryptic about his post. He'a referring to an idea that sounds nice in theory and doesn't work in practice. It's a common English phrase. And the phrase works well, the concept of informed concept sounds good in theory and never works in practice. Anyone who has observed tech companies for decades knows they don't ask for your consent before they make any consequential changes. Tech companies do whatever they want until they get sued or regulated. It's always been this way.
        Nullabillity 3y ago
        Read arp's comment again. The "consent" under those premises isn't valid, because it was neither informed nor freely given.
      - Geisterde 3y ago
        My appologies. I think informed consent is a wonderful idea, I just am skeptical that it exists in real life. I would say if you use an electronic device today, you are being spied on (with very narrow exceptions). Informed consent to me (take the example of a phone or many apps), based on the level I have to break it down to people for them to understand, is something like "we will see you whacking it to hentai, we will know when you take a dump, we have enough of your data to derive private information you never gave us, we have all the data necessary to totally ruin your life socially and economically, and it will all be leaked to criminals that will profit from your demise, dont worry though, we will give you a 1 year sub to mcafee antivirus as a consolation prize." I think we can at least agree that ^^that happens to people. So, whos going to be the first company to not veat around the bush and just admit that reality? That, is why I say informed consent sounds nice, every company that can keep a skilled contract lawyer on payroll has an incentive to downplay their spying. I dont know in what version of reality informed consent could exist, because the incentive is fairly obvious.
- int_19h 3y ago
  You don't. But it means that the title of the story is correct as worded: if you do use those tools, you are getting spied on. The fact that you're warned about that somewhere in the TOS doesn't change the fact, and the story is basically correct.
  - educaysean 3y ago
    I think the word "spy" is problematic here because one might assume that the subject being spied on must be unaware of the fact, otherwise you no longer qualify as "being spied on".
    - Geisterde 3y ago
      The government doesnt spy on its cotizens, because the citizens know they are being spied on?
      - anp 3y ago
        I hate that states do this, but yeah it’s called “surveillance” when legitimized by norms, statute, and precedent.
        pbhjpbhj 3y ago
        It's called surveillance _to_ legitimise it.
- OkayPhysicist 3y ago
  That's actually a fantastic example of the difference between actually owning something and not: I am absolutely allowed to modify my car in any way I please, including installing a ignition bypass.

r721 3y ago

Not even a random "user", but Bruce Schneier!

tuwtuwtuwtuw 3y ago
Who also helpfully linked to his pages on Facebook and Twitter. I'm sure those never "spy" on their users.
- mixmastamyk 3y ago
  ”Yet you participate in society. I am very intelligent.”. ;-)
  - tuwtuwtuwtuw 3y ago
    I'm not sure how to interpret that. I just found it a bit ironic to make a post about Microsoft "spying" while marketing Facebook/Twitter.
    - mixmastamyk 3y ago
      It’s a well known ‘gotcha tactic. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-somewhat https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-som...

nonrandomstring 3y ago

> Next up, "Major television broadcasters spy on soccer players during Champions League games". I strongly agree with you that this story is a nothingburger. But as I note your reaction, I take a different interpretation. The implication that statements like "Microsoft spies on X" are truisms, is the news. We obviously all now accept as a given that these are tautologies. In other words "Spies spy on X" -> (is to say) "Microsoft = spies", not just in this sentence/context, but in all contexts. Terms, conditions, legality, illegality, hostility or friendliness all recede into irrelevance hereafter.

probably_satan 3y ago

Not to mention Microsoft intentionally built their AI lab in China haha. Bananas.

bastardoperator 3y ago
You're referring to an office/lab they built in 1998, lol. Pretty sure they bought in on this latest round...

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

JeremyNT 3y ago

Just because it's obvious to us doesn't mean it's obvious to everybody. The alarmist headline is warranted, and the fact that it's common doesn't make it acceptable. I welcome more awareness of this kind of lopsided ToS that enables such user hostile actions.