4 ms·

That seems very reasonable. The infrastructure to actually use EVs in the USA doesn't exist except for the coasts and around very large cities. Most of the area

That seems very reasonable. The infrastructure to actually use EVs in the USA doesn't exist except for the coasts and around very large cities. Most of the area of the USA simply doesn't have it at all. Additionally, if everyone did have EV cars the current electrical grid infrastructure would not be able to support the increased load. These aren't problems with EVs, really, but they are show stoppers. The EV car infrastructure for a large, dispersed country like the USA is much harder than the cars themselves.

perfunctory 3y ago
> rules that would have forced US automakers to turn EVs into their main business by 2032 8 years is plenty of time.
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  On a big project, 8 years is no time at all.
  - smileysteve 3y ago
    It's going to feel much more dire if any of the major European or Korean brands approach their 2030 targets.
7thaccount 3y ago
The timeline is the biggest problem. Grid stuff moves extremely slowly due to the extremely critical aspect of the grid, slowish beauracracy of many organizations involved, high costs for generation and power lines, and permitting challenges. If you want to make everything electric and demand is going to triple in about a decade or so, then we simply have no way to respond to that in short order with the current reality of the system. The industry has seen more change in the past 10 years than the previous 50. There are a lot of moving parts. It's an exciting time to be working in power.
adrianN 3y ago
What parts of the US don’t have a grid that can tolerate about two dozen kWh per car per day extra load?
- mr337 3y ago
  The OP must be talking about eastern Alaska ;)
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
toomuchtodo 3y ago
Where people live, the infrastructure exists. The US grid can handle existing load if almost 80% of current light vehicles moved to electric today (per DOE and NREL). This regulation is a cop out because the US is lazy. https://supercharge.info/map https://supercharge.info/map (all automakers have adopted the NACS Tesla standard) https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/research/blog-can-the-grid-handle-evs-yes/ https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/research/blog-can-the-g... https://www.6sqft.com/50-of-americans-live-in-the-countrys-144-largest-counties/ https://www.6sqft.com/50-of-americans-live-in-the-countrys-1...
- dxhdr 3y ago
  > Where people live, the infrastructure exists. Have you tried using non-Tesla charging stations? It's a disaster! Those charging terminals are hastily thrown together pieces of junk, frankly. The hardware, software, billing, everything.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - MrRadar 3y ago
    Most people should be doing most of their charging at home. As someone pointed out downthread, level 1 (120V/15A) charging should be sufficient to cover most people's daily driving needs as long as they can keep the vehicle plugged in while they're not driving it. Obviously this is much easier for some (people who own a home with a garage) than others (people who do not have a garage or other fixed parking spot) but that's a problem we can fix gradually as electric cars gain market share.
    - someguydave 3y ago
      Yep I agree EV charging “grid upgrades” will cost some amount but it is small potatoes in the big picture, like a couple pennies per day per person
  - tw04 3y ago
    >Have you tried using non-Tesla charging stations? It's a disaster! Those charging terminals are hastily thrown together pieces of junk, frankly. The hardware, software, billing, everything. I've used public CCS charging for several years and I think your assessment is more than a bit harsh. Is the Tesla network more refined, reliable, and widespread? Yes. Is the CCS option "a disaster"? Absolutely not. I would call it a mixed bag. Level-2 charging has just worked 99.999% of the time. DC fast charging there are stations that can be out of service more often than I would like, but if you use the plugshare app you will almost certainly be able to reliably find chargers that are both working and available. It is extremely annoying to potentially have to use more than one app, but I would hope that will slowly change over time. The best thing the government could do is mandate some sort of centralized billing option for all of the various providers. For and GM are trying to do it through their apps but the problem is they only cover a subset of networks.
stephen_g 3y ago
That’s not a useful observation regarding the grid - yes, if EVs magically appeared in everyone’s driveways tomorrow then there might be a problem, but over a decade or so it’s basically no issue. All this is factored into planning. Even just a little demand management helps a lot too (like incentivising people charging at certain times by making it cheaper).
bb123 3y ago
Electricity consumption in the US has historically been higher than it is now - why do you assume that a) the conversion to electric vehicles will be overnight b) the grid can't be enhanced to cope?
DinoCoder99 3y ago
Surely increased pressure would deliver the desired effect, not decreased pressure!
someguydave 3y ago
Are you saying places in the US lack electricity? Aside from long range travel, you only need an extra 120v 15A outlet for most EV use cases.
- tzs 3y ago
  Not quite. You need an extra 120 V 15 A outlet near someplace where you can leave your car overnight. That would be no problem at my house. My garage has plenty of 120 V 15 A outlets (although when I get an EV I'll have a 240 V 30 A outlet put in). Every apartment I've lived in did have an extra 120 V 15 A outlet, but none of them had one anywhere near my parking spot.
  - adrianN 3y ago
    So either is an area with sparse population where there are few public chargers and lots of people with garages, or it’s a dense area with apartments where it’s relatively easy to improve the infrastructure?
    - someguydave 3y ago
      Yeah exactly, I agree it will cost something to upgrade but the costs are just not that high
  - smileysteve 3y ago
    The interesting thing about high density parking spots; is that they are, also the most cost effective to add high density charging to; Whether outside or in a parking garage, - they tend to be located near the trunk line - where an additional transformer and meter can be added with least impact to aesthetics - either buried electrical or concrete mounted conduit have the lowest construction costs (compared to finishing behind walls)
    - someguydave 3y ago
      Yeah I mean maybe it would cost 50-100k to provide L2 charging for an entire apartment? Not zero but not really a big deal in the big picture
shmerl 3y ago
So let them make the infrastructure instead of pushing the dates. What were they doing until now?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

perfunctory 3y ago

> rules that would have forced US automakers to turn EVs into their main business by 2032 8 years is plenty of time.

gjsman-1000 3y ago
On a big project, 8 years is no time at all.
- smileysteve 3y ago
  It's going to feel much more dire if any of the major European or Korean brands approach their 2030 targets.

7thaccount 3y ago

The timeline is the biggest problem. Grid stuff moves extremely slowly due to the extremely critical aspect of the grid, slowish beauracracy of many organizations involved, high costs for generation and power lines, and permitting challenges. If you want to make everything electric and demand is going to triple in about a decade or so, then we simply have no way to respond to that in short order with the current reality of the system. The industry has seen more change in the past 10 years than the previous 50. There are a lot of moving parts. It's an exciting time to be working in power.

adrianN 3y ago

What parts of the US don’t have a grid that can tolerate about two dozen kWh per car per day extra load?

mr337 3y ago
The OP must be talking about eastern Alaska ;)
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

toomuchtodo 3y ago

Where people live, the infrastructure exists. The US grid can handle existing load if almost 80% of current light vehicles moved to electric today (per DOE and NREL). This regulation is a cop out because the US is lazy. https://supercharge.info/map https://supercharge.info/map (all automakers have adopted the NACS Tesla standard) https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/research/blog-can-the-grid-handle-evs-yes/ https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/research/blog-can-the-g... https://www.6sqft.com/50-of-americans-live-in-the-countrys-144-largest-counties/ https://www.6sqft.com/50-of-americans-live-in-the-countrys-1...

dxhdr 3y ago
> Where people live, the infrastructure exists. Have you tried using non-Tesla charging stations? It's a disaster! Those charging terminals are hastily thrown together pieces of junk, frankly. The hardware, software, billing, everything.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- MrRadar 3y ago
  Most people should be doing most of their charging at home. As someone pointed out downthread, level 1 (120V/15A) charging should be sufficient to cover most people's daily driving needs as long as they can keep the vehicle plugged in while they're not driving it. Obviously this is much easier for some (people who own a home with a garage) than others (people who do not have a garage or other fixed parking spot) but that's a problem we can fix gradually as electric cars gain market share.
  - someguydave 3y ago
    Yep I agree EV charging “grid upgrades” will cost some amount but it is small potatoes in the big picture, like a couple pennies per day per person
- tw04 3y ago
  >Have you tried using non-Tesla charging stations? It's a disaster! Those charging terminals are hastily thrown together pieces of junk, frankly. The hardware, software, billing, everything. I've used public CCS charging for several years and I think your assessment is more than a bit harsh. Is the Tesla network more refined, reliable, and widespread? Yes. Is the CCS option "a disaster"? Absolutely not. I would call it a mixed bag. Level-2 charging has just worked 99.999% of the time. DC fast charging there are stations that can be out of service more often than I would like, but if you use the plugshare app you will almost certainly be able to reliably find chargers that are both working and available. It is extremely annoying to potentially have to use more than one app, but I would hope that will slowly change over time. The best thing the government could do is mandate some sort of centralized billing option for all of the various providers. For and GM are trying to do it through their apps but the problem is they only cover a subset of networks.

stephen_g 3y ago

That’s not a useful observation regarding the grid - yes, if EVs magically appeared in everyone’s driveways tomorrow then there might be a problem, but over a decade or so it’s basically no issue. All this is factored into planning. Even just a little demand management helps a lot too (like incentivising people charging at certain times by making it cheaper).

bb123 3y ago

Electricity consumption in the US has historically been higher than it is now - why do you assume that a) the conversion to electric vehicles will be overnight b) the grid can't be enhanced to cope?

DinoCoder99 3y ago

Surely increased pressure would deliver the desired effect, not decreased pressure!

someguydave 3y ago

Are you saying places in the US lack electricity? Aside from long range travel, you only need an extra 120v 15A outlet for most EV use cases.

tzs 3y ago
Not quite. You need an extra 120 V 15 A outlet near someplace where you can leave your car overnight. That would be no problem at my house. My garage has plenty of 120 V 15 A outlets (although when I get an EV I'll have a 240 V 30 A outlet put in). Every apartment I've lived in did have an extra 120 V 15 A outlet, but none of them had one anywhere near my parking spot.
- adrianN 3y ago
  So either is an area with sparse population where there are few public chargers and lots of people with garages, or it’s a dense area with apartments where it’s relatively easy to improve the infrastructure?
  - someguydave 3y ago
    Yeah exactly, I agree it will cost something to upgrade but the costs are just not that high
- smileysteve 3y ago
  The interesting thing about high density parking spots; is that they are, also the most cost effective to add high density charging to; Whether outside or in a parking garage, - they tend to be located near the trunk line - where an additional transformer and meter can be added with least impact to aesthetics - either buried electrical or concrete mounted conduit have the lowest construction costs (compared to finishing behind walls)
  - someguydave 3y ago
    Yeah I mean maybe it would cost 50-100k to provide L2 charging for an entire apartment? Not zero but not really a big deal in the big picture

shmerl 3y ago

So let them make the infrastructure instead of pushing the dates. What were they doing until now?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]