3 ms·

There are still plenty of four- or five-storey walkups in Manhattan. These can be razed and replaced with residential high-rises. Manhattan's ability to build u

There are still plenty of four- or five-storey walkups in Manhattan. These can be razed and replaced with residential high-rises. Manhattan's ability to build up (as opposed to out) is essentially unlimited.

ghaff 3y ago
Yes, you can of course just kick those people out from where they're living.
- sydbarrett74 3y ago
  I'm not saying it would have to involve overnight evictions. It would happen over a multi-year span.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    Historically, "urban renewal" has involved the city government just taking drastic action. If you want to turn low/mid-rises into high-rises at scale, that probably won't happen organically.
    - sydbarrett74 3y ago
      I concede that past efforts at urban renewal have usually neglected to take into account the needs of all (or even most) stakeholders. It's an intractable problem, but not impossible. Perhaps the perfect storm of a housing crisis, climate change, and lower property tax revenue from a collapse in commercial RE might force rational heads to come together.
      - ghaff 3y ago
        >a collapse in commercial RE Perhaps. But if jobs are not a reason to live in a city, I expect that will change the housing equation for many people and they'll just move somewhere that isn't as crowded. Which is probably even a good result overall. Lower housing prices for people who want to live in a city for other reasons--albeit perhaps with reductions in services and other favored urban features overall.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
I guess if Manhattan had the density of Hong Kong, it would be as affordable as Hong Kong? Hong Kong really does explore the limits of unlimited growth upward.
- kiba 3y ago
  Hong Kong has the same problem as everyone else: refusal to build.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    That is ridiculous considering the towering apartment blocks you can see anywhere that isn’t covered by a steep mountain in the region. And those get tunneled through by subways so all the places that can be built on are. The same is really true with any mainland Chinese city. And still people complain about the rent being too high.
    - kiba 3y ago
      Just because you have a lot of high skyscraper doesn't mean you have an adequate supply. I have seen pictures of those high rise apartment buildings. What's clear to me is that they're frequently skinny and tall. The tallness of these structures can be misleading, because we're not accounting for total volume of a building. You can have a lot of density with relatively low height and greater area of space occupied. These may be green spaces or parks. Filling in those area with more building volume doesn't mean green spaces are impossible, but it would be an engineering challenge to put green spaces on the roof. If you wish to see truly insane population density. You should see images of Kowloon walled city and compare that to Hong Kong. They're not really comparable. Kowloon Walled City is only 10 to 14 of stories high. There are certainly buildings higher than that in Hong Kong. In any case, housing cost is determined by demand and supply. If there's sufficient supply of housing, the price would go down. If there's insufficient housing, the cost would rise. It doesn't matter if your city is hyperdense or not.
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
bobthepanda 3y ago
You need a lot more zoning capacity than housing demand because for various reasons buildings don’t turn over very quickly. The real problem is that to be healthy, the housing market in New York needs a lot more capacity in recognizance of this fact. There is no such thing as full zoning capacity in the same way that zero unemployment is not realistic or good.

ghaff 3y ago

Yes, you can of course just kick those people out from where they're living.

sydbarrett74 3y ago
I'm not saying it would have to involve overnight evictions. It would happen over a multi-year span.
- ghaff 3y ago
  Historically, "urban renewal" has involved the city government just taking drastic action. If you want to turn low/mid-rises into high-rises at scale, that probably won't happen organically.
  - sydbarrett74 3y ago
    I concede that past efforts at urban renewal have usually neglected to take into account the needs of all (or even most) stakeholders. It's an intractable problem, but not impossible. Perhaps the perfect storm of a housing crisis, climate change, and lower property tax revenue from a collapse in commercial RE might force rational heads to come together.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      >a collapse in commercial RE Perhaps. But if jobs are not a reason to live in a city, I expect that will change the housing equation for many people and they'll just move somewhere that isn't as crowded. Which is probably even a good result overall. Lower housing prices for people who want to live in a city for other reasons--albeit perhaps with reductions in services and other favored urban features overall.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

I guess if Manhattan had the density of Hong Kong, it would be as affordable as Hong Kong? Hong Kong really does explore the limits of unlimited growth upward.

kiba 3y ago
Hong Kong has the same problem as everyone else: refusal to build.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  That is ridiculous considering the towering apartment blocks you can see anywhere that isn’t covered by a steep mountain in the region. And those get tunneled through by subways so all the places that can be built on are. The same is really true with any mainland Chinese city. And still people complain about the rent being too high.
  - kiba 3y ago
    Just because you have a lot of high skyscraper doesn't mean you have an adequate supply. I have seen pictures of those high rise apartment buildings. What's clear to me is that they're frequently skinny and tall. The tallness of these structures can be misleading, because we're not accounting for total volume of a building. You can have a lot of density with relatively low height and greater area of space occupied. These may be green spaces or parks. Filling in those area with more building volume doesn't mean green spaces are impossible, but it would be an engineering challenge to put green spaces on the roof. If you wish to see truly insane population density. You should see images of Kowloon walled city and compare that to Hong Kong. They're not really comparable. Kowloon Walled City is only 10 to 14 of stories high. There are certainly buildings higher than that in Hong Kong. In any case, housing cost is determined by demand and supply. If there's sufficient supply of housing, the price would go down. If there's insufficient housing, the cost would rise. It doesn't matter if your city is hyperdense or not.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago

bobthepanda 3y ago

You need a lot more zoning capacity than housing demand because for various reasons buildings don’t turn over very quickly. The real problem is that to be healthy, the housing market in New York needs a lot more capacity in recognizance of this fact. There is no such thing as full zoning capacity in the same way that zero unemployment is not realistic or good.