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Only Microsoft can fix this; no enhanced CSV proposal will matter until it’s baked into Excel. TSV is marginally better, but not enough. CSV is the universal f

Only Microsoft can fix this; no enhanced CSV proposal will matter until it’s baked into Excel. TSV is marginally better, but not enough. CSV is the universal file format, and will be forever; nothing else is ever as readable and as portable. You can’t easily get JSON out of an Excel sheet, or easily read it in any text editor. CSV needs just a few tweaks to make it easier to avoid comma, double-quote, and newline issues that suck a bazillion dollars of productivity out of the economy each year with broken data imports. This is probably the lowest hanging fruit in all of technology: a small change to Excel to dramatically improve data processing / import-export for all humanity.

frizlab 3y ago
The worst thing by far in Excel’s implementation of CSV is the separator is actually a semicolon when the computer’s locale uses a comma for separating the decimals in a number.
no_wizard 3y ago
I agree. Excel being so dominant in its market segments makes data interop harder for no other reason than they use proprietary default formats and don’t quite support CSV in a conformant way Not quite related but I once saw a proposal that file formats should be regulated to require documented interoperability. This change would foster a ton of competition and evolve standards as an industry to the benefit to all is the argument in a nutshell. If XLSX was documented for interop it would also go a long way in data independence
- zokier 3y ago
  You mean like ECMA-376, ISO/IEC 29500? See also https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/openspecs/main/ms-openspeclp/3589baea-5b22-48f2-9d43-f5bea4960ddb https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/openspecs/main/ms-openspec... Some historical note: https://www.computerworld.com/article/2526864/microsoft-offers-office-2010-file-format--ballot--to-stop-eu-antitrust-pro.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2526864/microsoft-offe...
secondcoming 3y ago
How can they fix anything if other software isn't written to obey, or expect, headers?
- anon84873628 3y ago
  Instead of looking at it in terms of the distinct number of different software products, instead look at the number of physical "integration operations" that happen every day. A good portion of those (whether it is "the majority", who can say) are actually between Excel and itself, e.g. two people in a company sending files to each other. This is a multi-agent coordination problem. If Excel (the dominant market participant) makes a change because it is helpful to their own users anyway, that alters the incentive calculus for the other software products too. Suddenly there is a large enough market / population of users / number of integration events where making an investment in the enhancement makes sense.
  - politelemon 3y ago
    I agree it makes a lot of sense, and to help with the "marketing" they could even give it a slightly distinct but easy name to indicate it's a CSV flavour. Having something repeatable verbally makes it easier in conversations. I've sent you an Earthy CSV. Oh you can use x, it supports earthy.
  - MichaelZuo 3y ago
    If they make it a default they will nonetheless break a huge amount of existing workflows to older Excel versions and other programs. Why would they want to pay for the reputation and credibility damage for the multi-year long, or multi-decade long, transition period?

frizlab 3y ago

The worst thing by far in Excel’s implementation of CSV is the separator is actually a semicolon when the computer’s locale uses a comma for separating the decimals in a number.

no_wizard 3y ago

I agree. Excel being so dominant in its market segments makes data interop harder for no other reason than they use proprietary default formats and don’t quite support CSV in a conformant way Not quite related but I once saw a proposal that file formats should be regulated to require documented interoperability. This change would foster a ton of competition and evolve standards as an industry to the benefit to all is the argument in a nutshell. If XLSX was documented for interop it would also go a long way in data independence

zokier 3y ago
You mean like ECMA-376, ISO/IEC 29500? See also https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/openspecs/main/ms-openspeclp/3589baea-5b22-48f2-9d43-f5bea4960ddb https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/openspecs/main/ms-openspec... Some historical note: https://www.computerworld.com/article/2526864/microsoft-offers-office-2010-file-format--ballot--to-stop-eu-antitrust-pro.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2526864/microsoft-offe...

secondcoming 3y ago

How can they fix anything if other software isn't written to obey, or expect, headers?

anon84873628 3y ago
Instead of looking at it in terms of the distinct number of different software products, instead look at the number of physical "integration operations" that happen every day. A good portion of those (whether it is "the majority", who can say) are actually between Excel and itself, e.g. two people in a company sending files to each other. This is a multi-agent coordination problem. If Excel (the dominant market participant) makes a change because it is helpful to their own users anyway, that alters the incentive calculus for the other software products too. Suddenly there is a large enough market / population of users / number of integration events where making an investment in the enhancement makes sense.
- politelemon 3y ago
  I agree it makes a lot of sense, and to help with the "marketing" they could even give it a slightly distinct but easy name to indicate it's a CSV flavour. Having something repeatable verbally makes it easier in conversations. I've sent you an Earthy CSV. Oh you can use x, it supports earthy.
- MichaelZuo 3y ago
  If they make it a default they will nonetheless break a huge amount of existing workflows to older Excel versions and other programs. Why would they want to pay for the reputation and credibility damage for the multi-year long, or multi-decade long, transition period?