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> Will probably always have to utilize low foreign wages This mindset lies at the center of neoliberalism and should be examined with nuance and perspective, s

> Will probably always have to utilize low foreign wages This mindset lies at the center of neoliberalism and should be examined with nuance and perspective, since the quality of each individual's experience can vary wildly in a market which accepts such inequalities as necessary for the health of the overall system.

robertlagrant 3y ago
It's hard to know what you're saying. Everything should be examined carefully (although you can't examine something "with nuance" - nuance is not an examination tool). What are you actually saying? If $1 buys a good meal somewhere, but it costs $15 for the same meal somewhere else, paying someone less in the former location is not a moral failing.
- visarga 3y ago
  A meal might be 15x cheaper, but a phone, laptop, car or anything imported will surely not be cheaper.
  - nonethewiser 3y ago
    > A meal might be 15x cheaper, but a phone, laptop, car or anything imported will surely not be cheaper. Im not sure I understand what you’re saying because it absolutely is orders of magnitude to import phones and laptops. Cars have more tariffs to protect the domestic market so Im unsure about that one.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    > anything imported will surely not be cheaper Possibly not, but that can't be solved purely by employers. If a country for whatever reason does not have the economy to support this, this can't be solved quickly. Companies won't pay $15/hr to overseas workers; they'd probably just not spend the money there at all. That's the choice you're giving them. Also - it probably will be cheaper, for three reasons: - the local market won't bear the real price, and while this means less profit, it's still some profit, or presence, or whatever reason the vendor is selling for - a similar but slightly different product might be offered. E.g. I bought a car in South Africa and it was a slightly simpler spec compared to the UK equivalent, despite looking identical - local labour, fuel tax, sales tax, and other costs all increase prices. Driving the goods to a shop and buying them from it is a pretty different cost in different countries.
  - fragmede 3y ago
    There are $50 android phones to a top of the line $1,500 iPhone. These are only sold in developing markets and are unsurprisingly, not very good. but they're better than nothing. cars also have this thing where they're cheaper outside of the US due to lax safety regulations.
    - ambichook 3y ago
      its the tariffs, anything not built in the US is insanely hard/impossible to import so they cost a bunch more, but you have a local auto industry. in aus, for example, we flat out don't have such an industry anymore (still mad about holden) and that was in part due to imported vehicles being cheaper
- woooooo 3y ago
  As a consumer, of course you buy what's cheaper and that's not a moral failing. Policy makers on the other hand should consider externalities, and optimize for making them less bad, or at least not make them worse.
  - soulofmischief 3y ago
    I'd go further and say that policy makers currently actively manipulate the population by manufacturing consent for an unsustainable lifestyle built upon the back of cheap foreign labor.
nonethewiser 3y ago
I think you’re missing the price competitive constraint. I said it would need low foreign wages to be price competitive with China. Under what non-neoliberal mindset is this false? I can only think of one and I dont think its what you have in mind: reduce labor rights and eliminate the minimum wage.
- soulofmischief 3y ago
  I hear you, I just think it merits a discussion on how to bolster our national energy grid without necessitating the ongoing disenfranchisement of cheap foreign labor markets, the majority of which were created intentionally by Western society over the last two centuries. I'm not comparing solar industry labor with cobalt mining, but I think cobalt mining is a good modern example of a more extreme version of this. Absolutely deplorable working conditions in order to enable a higher quality life for more "civilized" countries. The kind of classist thinking which has existed for such a long period of time that it's often taken for granted as some sort of necessary evil of society. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11668015/Devastating-photos-cobalt-mines-Democratic-Republic-Congo-power-Apple-Tesla-more.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11668015/Devastatin...
codersfocus 3y ago
If you examined your thoughts more closely, you'd realize they're ridiculous. Should we pay everyone the same in a given country? Should a food deliverer make the same as a surgeon? No? Then this creates an economic hierarchy already. This economic hierarchy exists for countries as well.
- soulofmischief 3y ago
  The mentality that low foreign wages are necessary to sustain a certain quality of life is by definition classism, we just don't notice how unfair it is because we outsource what cheap labor we can, and do a great job of segregating the remaining cheap domestic labor class from the middle and upper classes. It's not ridiculous to examine this. Your example compares the relative value of different professions, which is not relevant, because the context of this discussion is the comparison of domestic and foreign labor for the same professions. Pragmatically speaking, there will always be an economic gradient under a capitalist system, as this gradient is necessary for the system to work. But we should still be mindful of the impact of our decisions at every level of the system. Parent poster was suggesting that a cheap foreign labor market is required in order to create a better national energy grid. Economic policies which rely upon this sort of thinking inevitably establish structural classism. There is no moral excuse for structural classism, which is quite a different discussion than your comparison of food delivery and surgery as two services with a different inherent value.
lazide 3y ago
And in a global economy, that is much easier to do because there is no common power to enforce otherwise. Though, notably, the experience between someone in Mississippi and New York City is already wildly different.

robertlagrant 3y ago

It's hard to know what you're saying. Everything should be examined carefully (although you can't examine something "with nuance" - nuance is not an examination tool). What are you actually saying? If $1 buys a good meal somewhere, but it costs $15 for the same meal somewhere else, paying someone less in the former location is not a moral failing.

visarga 3y ago
A meal might be 15x cheaper, but a phone, laptop, car or anything imported will surely not be cheaper.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  > A meal might be 15x cheaper, but a phone, laptop, car or anything imported will surely not be cheaper. Im not sure I understand what you’re saying because it absolutely is orders of magnitude to import phones and laptops. Cars have more tariffs to protect the domestic market so Im unsure about that one.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  > anything imported will surely not be cheaper Possibly not, but that can't be solved purely by employers. If a country for whatever reason does not have the economy to support this, this can't be solved quickly. Companies won't pay $15/hr to overseas workers; they'd probably just not spend the money there at all. That's the choice you're giving them. Also - it probably will be cheaper, for three reasons: - the local market won't bear the real price, and while this means less profit, it's still some profit, or presence, or whatever reason the vendor is selling for - a similar but slightly different product might be offered. E.g. I bought a car in South Africa and it was a slightly simpler spec compared to the UK equivalent, despite looking identical - local labour, fuel tax, sales tax, and other costs all increase prices. Driving the goods to a shop and buying them from it is a pretty different cost in different countries.
- fragmede 3y ago
  There are $50 android phones to a top of the line $1,500 iPhone. These are only sold in developing markets and are unsurprisingly, not very good. but they're better than nothing. cars also have this thing where they're cheaper outside of the US due to lax safety regulations.
  - ambichook 3y ago
    its the tariffs, anything not built in the US is insanely hard/impossible to import so they cost a bunch more, but you have a local auto industry. in aus, for example, we flat out don't have such an industry anymore (still mad about holden) and that was in part due to imported vehicles being cheaper
woooooo 3y ago
As a consumer, of course you buy what's cheaper and that's not a moral failing. Policy makers on the other hand should consider externalities, and optimize for making them less bad, or at least not make them worse.
- soulofmischief 3y ago
  I'd go further and say that policy makers currently actively manipulate the population by manufacturing consent for an unsustainable lifestyle built upon the back of cheap foreign labor.

nonethewiser 3y ago

I think you’re missing the price competitive constraint. I said it would need low foreign wages to be price competitive with China. Under what non-neoliberal mindset is this false? I can only think of one and I dont think its what you have in mind: reduce labor rights and eliminate the minimum wage.

soulofmischief 3y ago
I hear you, I just think it merits a discussion on how to bolster our national energy grid without necessitating the ongoing disenfranchisement of cheap foreign labor markets, the majority of which were created intentionally by Western society over the last two centuries. I'm not comparing solar industry labor with cobalt mining, but I think cobalt mining is a good modern example of a more extreme version of this. Absolutely deplorable working conditions in order to enable a higher quality life for more "civilized" countries. The kind of classist thinking which has existed for such a long period of time that it's often taken for granted as some sort of necessary evil of society. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11668015/Devastating-photos-cobalt-mines-Democratic-Republic-Congo-power-Apple-Tesla-more.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11668015/Devastatin...

codersfocus 3y ago

If you examined your thoughts more closely, you'd realize they're ridiculous. Should we pay everyone the same in a given country? Should a food deliverer make the same as a surgeon? No? Then this creates an economic hierarchy already. This economic hierarchy exists for countries as well.

soulofmischief 3y ago
The mentality that low foreign wages are necessary to sustain a certain quality of life is by definition classism, we just don't notice how unfair it is because we outsource what cheap labor we can, and do a great job of segregating the remaining cheap domestic labor class from the middle and upper classes. It's not ridiculous to examine this. Your example compares the relative value of different professions, which is not relevant, because the context of this discussion is the comparison of domestic and foreign labor for the same professions. Pragmatically speaking, there will always be an economic gradient under a capitalist system, as this gradient is necessary for the system to work. But we should still be mindful of the impact of our decisions at every level of the system. Parent poster was suggesting that a cheap foreign labor market is required in order to create a better national energy grid. Economic policies which rely upon this sort of thinking inevitably establish structural classism. There is no moral excuse for structural classism, which is quite a different discussion than your comparison of food delivery and surgery as two services with a different inherent value.

lazide 3y ago

And in a global economy, that is much easier to do because there is no common power to enforce otherwise. Though, notably, the experience between someone in Mississippi and New York City is already wildly different.