4 ms·

Inner Platform Effect

35 points by faebi 3y ago

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
yau8edq12i 3y ago
Someone apparently thought that Wikipedia was a blogging platform. Shame on them.
- anon-sre-srm 3y ago
  Don't worry, random important technical history will be randomly deleted by unemployed guitarist/wikipedia editor. Ask someone under 30 what an encyclopedia is or how an academic journal works, and you'll get a blank stare. Javascript may have eaten the world, but Wikipedia ate the world's history and depth of knowledge.
  - geor9e 3y ago
    People often get upset with Wikipedia along these lines, but familiarize yourself with the official rules for inclusion and goals of Wikipedia - they've stayed nearly the same for decades. It's not intended to be the internet archive, it's not intended to keep any historical records itself. It can only summarize external records. If those records can no longer be externally sourced, official policy is to delete the information off Wikipedia. It's always been their policy, so it's not the fault of unemployed guitarists. There are many wikis on the internet that welcome original research and personal arguments, for computer science c2 is an example.
    - anon-sre-srm 3y ago
      Wikipedia is a lie and a tragedy of the commons pile of poo run by an elite mob of dilettante knownothings who lack the perspective or authority to judge the content they deem relevant or not presumptively and arbitrarily without any fair or formal process, inquiry, or research.
      - AstralStorm 3y ago
        Yet somehow it works well and complements other vetted sources. Chew on that for a while.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- geor9e 3y ago
  Exactly. It is arguing an opinion (a piece of software shouldn't try to do everything), and is paraphrased from small list of sources that all paraphrase a single source https://thedailywtf.com/articles/The_Inner-Platform_Effect https://thedailywtf.com/articles/The_Inner-Platform_Effect . It is interesting enough for HN, and should be posted on the web somewhere, even a wiki like c2, it just doesn't meet the official criteria for Wikipedia. I'm surprised it hasn't been nominated for deletion yet.
  - JadeNB 3y ago
    > I'm surprised it hasn't been nominated for deletion yet. This being Wikipedia, you can change that if you want to.
anon-sre-srm 3y ago
When suitable alternatives exist, duplication with complexity is a subconscious tendency to ensure job security. It happens everywhere. If we were to completely deduplicate technology and effort by ruthlessly promoting standardization, there would be only one instruction set architecture, one compiler, one operating system, and many fewer programming languages. The paradox of choice, especially unlimited choice, is tyranny of a different kind than monoculture. Also, there must be review of the work of so-called "architects" so they do not form a hated cadre of useless idea guys.
hyperhello 3y ago
Zawinski's Law of Software Envelopment: "An app for displaying hypertext documents becomes a mail reader, then an OS." Hmm..yes.
7373737373 3y ago
I see this over and over again in programming projects like - real time games involving multiple characters (which run some sort of logic to appear human/intelligent, often running some priority queue/stack machine) - simulations involving multiple agents/actors which should (appear to) run simultaneously (e.g. network simulation of multiple routers/computers communicating, running some routing protocol/network program) - other systems where users are inputting their own programs (like programming challenges) or where combining multiple effects may potentially cause infinite loops (like in some card games) - systems where a user receives a potentially untrusted program which, even if sandboxed from accesssing external data resources, may exhaust cpu time and memory (like the web) These most often lead devs to create their own domain specific language and interpreter (or embedding another language like Lua), to be able to step through programs in order to simulate simultaneity (by running each, say, simulated router for a few steps each in turn) and/or prevent one component from using all the resources (by counting cycles/instruction steps). But this always because the popular languages we use don't allow one to run another interpreter of that language recursively, for a limited number of steps. This disappoints me, because this is less expressive power/flexibility than what a CPU provides at the base level (with timer interrupts or breakpoints). I love to link to this page: https://stackless.readthedocs.io/en/2.7-slp/library/stackless/pickling.html https://stackless.readthedocs.io/en/2.7-slp/library/stackles... because Stackless Python is one language that can do this. On the other hand, security-wise, Python is awful because unlike with WebAssembly for example, there aren't any isolated processes/containers, and there likely never will be this level of secure containment.
munch117 3y ago
The configuration complexity clock (https://mikehadlow.blogspot.com/2012/05/configuration-complexity-clock.html https://mikehadlow.blogspot.com/2012/05/configuration-comple...) is another description of the same phenomenon. The inner platform is the DSL at 9 o'clock.
- geor9e 3y ago
  I could see the phenomena as a spiral. Each spin of that configuration complexity clock begins the next higher-level layer of abstraction. It begins with the intention of a safe sandbox layer of easy to make changes. Eventually, those users demand more abilities until the layer can read mail and is it's own inner platform OS. Then someone gets the bright idea of sandboxing part of that. It's turtles all the way down.

35 points by faebi 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

yau8edq12i 3y ago

Someone apparently thought that Wikipedia was a blogging platform. Shame on them.

anon-sre-srm 3y ago
Don't worry, random important technical history will be randomly deleted by unemployed guitarist/wikipedia editor. Ask someone under 30 what an encyclopedia is or how an academic journal works, and you'll get a blank stare. Javascript may have eaten the world, but Wikipedia ate the world's history and depth of knowledge.
- geor9e 3y ago
  People often get upset with Wikipedia along these lines, but familiarize yourself with the official rules for inclusion and goals of Wikipedia - they've stayed nearly the same for decades. It's not intended to be the internet archive, it's not intended to keep any historical records itself. It can only summarize external records. If those records can no longer be externally sourced, official policy is to delete the information off Wikipedia. It's always been their policy, so it's not the fault of unemployed guitarists. There are many wikis on the internet that welcome original research and personal arguments, for computer science c2 is an example.
  - anon-sre-srm 3y ago
    Wikipedia is a lie and a tragedy of the commons pile of poo run by an elite mob of dilettante knownothings who lack the perspective or authority to judge the content they deem relevant or not presumptively and arbitrarily without any fair or formal process, inquiry, or research.
    - AstralStorm 3y ago
      Yet somehow it works well and complements other vetted sources. Chew on that for a while.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
geor9e 3y ago
Exactly. It is arguing an opinion (a piece of software shouldn't try to do everything), and is paraphrased from small list of sources that all paraphrase a single source https://thedailywtf.com/articles/The_Inner-Platform_Effect https://thedailywtf.com/articles/The_Inner-Platform_Effect . It is interesting enough for HN, and should be posted on the web somewhere, even a wiki like c2, it just doesn't meet the official criteria for Wikipedia. I'm surprised it hasn't been nominated for deletion yet.
- JadeNB 3y ago
  > I'm surprised it hasn't been nominated for deletion yet. This being Wikipedia, you can change that if you want to.

anon-sre-srm 3y ago

When suitable alternatives exist, duplication with complexity is a subconscious tendency to ensure job security. It happens everywhere. If we were to completely deduplicate technology and effort by ruthlessly promoting standardization, there would be only one instruction set architecture, one compiler, one operating system, and many fewer programming languages. The paradox of choice, especially unlimited choice, is tyranny of a different kind than monoculture. Also, there must be review of the work of so-called "architects" so they do not form a hated cadre of useless idea guys.

hyperhello 3y ago

Zawinski's Law of Software Envelopment: "An app for displaying hypertext documents becomes a mail reader, then an OS." Hmm..yes.

7373737373 3y ago

I see this over and over again in programming projects like - real time games involving multiple characters (which run some sort of logic to appear human/intelligent, often running some priority queue/stack machine) - simulations involving multiple agents/actors which should (appear to) run simultaneously (e.g. network simulation of multiple routers/computers communicating, running some routing protocol/network program) - other systems where users are inputting their own programs (like programming challenges) or where combining multiple effects may potentially cause infinite loops (like in some card games) - systems where a user receives a potentially untrusted program which, even if sandboxed from accesssing external data resources, may exhaust cpu time and memory (like the web) These most often lead devs to create their own domain specific language and interpreter (or embedding another language like Lua), to be able to step through programs in order to simulate simultaneity (by running each, say, simulated router for a few steps each in turn) and/or prevent one component from using all the resources (by counting cycles/instruction steps). But this always because the popular languages we use don't allow one to run another interpreter of that language recursively, for a limited number of steps. This disappoints me, because this is less expressive power/flexibility than what a CPU provides at the base level (with timer interrupts or breakpoints). I love to link to this page: https://stackless.readthedocs.io/en/2.7-slp/library/stackless/pickling.html https://stackless.readthedocs.io/en/2.7-slp/library/stackles... because Stackless Python is one language that can do this. On the other hand, security-wise, Python is awful because unlike with WebAssembly for example, there aren't any isolated processes/containers, and there likely never will be this level of secure containment.

munch117 3y ago

The configuration complexity clock (https://mikehadlow.blogspot.com/2012/05/configuration-complexity-clock.html https://mikehadlow.blogspot.com/2012/05/configuration-comple...) is another description of the same phenomenon. The inner platform is the DSL at 9 o'clock.

geor9e 3y ago
I could see the phenomena as a spiral. Each spin of that configuration complexity clock begins the next higher-level layer of abstraction. It begins with the intention of a safe sandbox layer of easy to make changes. Eventually, those users demand more abilities until the layer can read mail and is it's own inner platform OS. Then someone gets the bright idea of sandboxing part of that. It's turtles all the way down.