4 ms·

you should not generalize cherry picking examples does not mean the web MUST be slow, maybe the web apps were programmed badly... I can write even worse native

you should not generalize cherry picking examples does not mean the web MUST be slow, maybe the web apps were programmed badly... I can write even worse native apps than these web apps and it will not prove anything did you ever try compile c++ code to webassembly and check out the performance "degradation"? it still can be true that for this special task, a native app is the better choice and people would buy it from the App Store even if 30% more expensive I mean nobody will and wants to take away the choice of using native tech. The degradation is on sooo many levels is not a necessity or consequense. Web apps are not replacements, they are a choice, an addition. I really do not understan these kinds of comments that frame web apps as a compulsory security nightmare or replacing superior native with inferior web... Safari stays, native stays, you and every developer can choose. It may move better developers towards the web stack but then faster and better web apps follow. They will make use of web capabilities and technologies (like better js, multi core, web assemly, optimizations etc). Chill! No self respecting company will publish inferior web apps if native is so much better in their special use case!

rubymamis 3y ago
> Chill! No self respecting company will publish inferior web apps if native is so much better in their special use case! Slack, Spotify, Teams, Notion... Why do I need to buy the top of the line M3 MacBook Pro to run these apps with a sane performance? What tells you that these same bloated apps won't be even more bloated in the future? There's something fundamentally broken with web apps. It's no wonder the Zed team (that originally created Electron for Atom) has moved completely away from it to develop their own native GUI toolkit.
- fauigerzigerk 3y ago
  >There's something fundamentally broken with web apps. While the web stack may be somewhat slower in the extreme, I think the reason why big bloated apps like Teams are slow is not down to technology at all. I think the causality works the other way around. Big corporations with large teams that are systemically incapable of paying attention to detail (including performance) choose web technologies because web tech allows them to churn out features faster and gain access to a large pool of easily replaceable developers.
  - rubymamis 3y ago
    That's all very well known. The fact remains that it's just too easy to write slow and resource hog apps (even when you really don't intend to) using web technologies. There are just countless examples. I think everyone can tell the difference when they run an Electron app or a native app. The only exception of late seems to be Notion Calendar (used to be Cron). It's an Electron app but runs pretty smoothly.
    - fauigerzigerk 3y ago
      I think given a certain limited amount of resouces, creating a single web based app will often result in far higher quality than spreading the same resources across four different native apps.
    - szasamasa 3y ago
      I agree that web is currently 99% terrible But I blame web "designers" not web tech because it has become so powerful on so many levels my favourite examples are: - V8 performance (but gecko and webkit engineers are great too) - webassembly - modular modern js - offline websites with service worker caching (I mean I see practically 0 websites making use of it... you download an asset, you cache it, even offline available... how many news sites let you read offline?) - web crypto - 100s of others https://developer.chrome.com/docs/capabilities/fugu-showcase https://developer.chrome.com/docs/capabilities/fugu-showcase
- wiseowise 3y ago
  > Slack, Spotify, Teams, Notion... VSCode, Figma, Discord, two can play this game. > Why do I need to buy the top of the line M3 MacBook Pro to run these apps with a sane performance? What kind of future super computer do I need to run NATIVE Xcode with sane performance? Why NATIVE email client drops frames on scrolling thousand long email list while I can scroll Amazon web page forever without perceived frame drops? Why opening NATIVE settings redesign on Mac OS stutters harder on my MBP 2018 than settings my shitty HTC from 2012? Why do I need to go through billions of steps to get OSS application working when it’s not notarized by fruity dictator?
  - rubymamis 3y ago
    Yes, you can write native code badly, but it's not as easy to shoot your app with degrading performance with native tech compared to web tech. EDIT: While VS Code is a fine app mostly. I can't really say it's performant at all when Sublime Text runs next to it. Figma - never tried. Discord - only on web, and the same thing with VS Code.
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  > Why do I need to buy the top of the line M3 MacBook Pro to run these apps with a sane performance? Bad software performs badly.
- szasamasa 3y ago
  I do not use these but I find windows after linux bloated so it may have something to do with microsoft engineers? (teams) spotify can choose its strategy, you can choose apple music native app (I guess there is something like this? I rarely listen to music but on youtube) Idont know about teams but my partner has ipad and iphone and I hear often how teams and microsoft products behave bad on iHardware... it may have to do with the love these two big corps show towards each other :) maybe you have to buy a windows laptop for teams too, that is the walled garden philosophy you actually seem to protect :) my partner now uses my laptop where I have a windows which I did not totally purged because I need this OS for testing :) hell there were chinese text the other day on the front page, you need to scan your finger twice (even if first was a success) sometimes, it cannot find the timezone from time to time :) I am not linux fanboy, the first ubuntu I purged 20 years ago or so I tried, but in the last 5-10 years linux is just great and getting glimpses how windows works by free family IT care, pff... that is the world we live in :) I added outlook as a web app for my partner and it has some apparent problems without testing it, but in the last 3 months I see it getting used and no problems I hear :) I guess the web designers are not web app programmers and it takes time until a new breed of programmers takes over the web... if I were spotify, I would keep the iOS app and you could choose 30% cheaper web or native... are they killing the native version? and: maybe these companies are not self-respecting in the way I meant it :) but every change is difficult... and again, it may turn out that the web just finds its use cases not totally taking over OR: Apple drops the fee to 3% and the change will not be so dramatic check out this email :) https://twitter.com/OpenWebAdvocacy/status/1759490496022696086/photo/1 https://twitter.com/OpenWebAdvocacy/status/17594904960226960... and this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3NASGb5m8s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3NASGb5m8s

rubymamis 3y ago

> Chill! No self respecting company will publish inferior web apps if native is so much better in their special use case! Slack, Spotify, Teams, Notion... Why do I need to buy the top of the line M3 MacBook Pro to run these apps with a sane performance? What tells you that these same bloated apps won't be even more bloated in the future? There's something fundamentally broken with web apps. It's no wonder the Zed team (that originally created Electron for Atom) has moved completely away from it to develop their own native GUI toolkit.

fauigerzigerk 3y ago
>There's something fundamentally broken with web apps. While the web stack may be somewhat slower in the extreme, I think the reason why big bloated apps like Teams are slow is not down to technology at all. I think the causality works the other way around. Big corporations with large teams that are systemically incapable of paying attention to detail (including performance) choose web technologies because web tech allows them to churn out features faster and gain access to a large pool of easily replaceable developers.
- rubymamis 3y ago
  That's all very well known. The fact remains that it's just too easy to write slow and resource hog apps (even when you really don't intend to) using web technologies. There are just countless examples. I think everyone can tell the difference when they run an Electron app or a native app. The only exception of late seems to be Notion Calendar (used to be Cron). It's an Electron app but runs pretty smoothly.
  - fauigerzigerk 3y ago
    I think given a certain limited amount of resouces, creating a single web based app will often result in far higher quality than spreading the same resources across four different native apps.
  - szasamasa 3y ago
    I agree that web is currently 99% terrible But I blame web "designers" not web tech because it has become so powerful on so many levels my favourite examples are: - V8 performance (but gecko and webkit engineers are great too) - webassembly - modular modern js - offline websites with service worker caching (I mean I see practically 0 websites making use of it... you download an asset, you cache it, even offline available... how many news sites let you read offline?) - web crypto - 100s of others https://developer.chrome.com/docs/capabilities/fugu-showcase https://developer.chrome.com/docs/capabilities/fugu-showcase
wiseowise 3y ago
> Slack, Spotify, Teams, Notion... VSCode, Figma, Discord, two can play this game. > Why do I need to buy the top of the line M3 MacBook Pro to run these apps with a sane performance? What kind of future super computer do I need to run NATIVE Xcode with sane performance? Why NATIVE email client drops frames on scrolling thousand long email list while I can scroll Amazon web page forever without perceived frame drops? Why opening NATIVE settings redesign on Mac OS stutters harder on my MBP 2018 than settings my shitty HTC from 2012? Why do I need to go through billions of steps to get OSS application working when it’s not notarized by fruity dictator?
- rubymamis 3y ago
  Yes, you can write native code badly, but it's not as easy to shoot your app with degrading performance with native tech compared to web tech. EDIT: While VS Code is a fine app mostly. I can't really say it's performant at all when Sublime Text runs next to it. Figma - never tried. Discord - only on web, and the same thing with VS Code.
marcosdumay 3y ago
> Why do I need to buy the top of the line M3 MacBook Pro to run these apps with a sane performance? Bad software performs badly.
szasamasa 3y ago
I do not use these but I find windows after linux bloated so it may have something to do with microsoft engineers? (teams) spotify can choose its strategy, you can choose apple music native app (I guess there is something like this? I rarely listen to music but on youtube) Idont know about teams but my partner has ipad and iphone and I hear often how teams and microsoft products behave bad on iHardware... it may have to do with the love these two big corps show towards each other :) maybe you have to buy a windows laptop for teams too, that is the walled garden philosophy you actually seem to protect :) my partner now uses my laptop where I have a windows which I did not totally purged because I need this OS for testing :) hell there were chinese text the other day on the front page, you need to scan your finger twice (even if first was a success) sometimes, it cannot find the timezone from time to time :) I am not linux fanboy, the first ubuntu I purged 20 years ago or so I tried, but in the last 5-10 years linux is just great and getting glimpses how windows works by free family IT care, pff... that is the world we live in :) I added outlook as a web app for my partner and it has some apparent problems without testing it, but in the last 3 months I see it getting used and no problems I hear :) I guess the web designers are not web app programmers and it takes time until a new breed of programmers takes over the web... if I were spotify, I would keep the iOS app and you could choose 30% cheaper web or native... are they killing the native version? and: maybe these companies are not self-respecting in the way I meant it :) but every change is difficult... and again, it may turn out that the web just finds its use cases not totally taking over OR: Apple drops the fee to 3% and the change will not be so dramatic check out this email :) https://twitter.com/OpenWebAdvocacy/status/1759490496022696086/photo/1 https://twitter.com/OpenWebAdvocacy/status/17594904960226960... and this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3NASGb5m8s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3NASGb5m8s