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This is bad but not in the way most people consider. The US military has contributed to popular media since about the time I was born to get young people intere

This is bad but not in the way most people consider. The US military has contributed to popular media since about the time I was born to get young people interested in military service, so nothing new there. What has changed most over the decades is lifestyle choice. People exercise less and focus less. The result is artificially induced ADHD and more physically fragile people less capable of completing initial entry training without severe or catastrophic muscle/bone injuries. Initial entry training is never meant to be that physically challenging, it’s not special forces selection. In the very near future only a tiny percentage of the American population will be capable of serving in the military due to fitness limitations mentally, physically, emotionally, and intellectually. That will become the new elite: something that money and late preparation cannot restore.

giantg2 3y ago
You have to ramp up your recruiting if your recruiting pool has shrunk (birth rate drop, BMI issues, substance use increase, etc). That's been happening for decades.
seanhunter 3y ago
Do you have a reference for the notion that lifestyle choice is artificially inducing ADHD? I'm interested to learn more.
- lukas099 3y ago
  Yeah, from my understanding ADHD is something you have from the moment you're born to the moment you die.
  - austin-cheney 3y ago
    Normally, yes. Catastrophic brain injuries can also result in ADHD. People who develop identical symptoms to ADHD due to stimulus and conditioning do not actually have ADHD and cannot be treated with medications for ADHD treatment, but otherwise for all practical purposes the real world performance limitations are the same. I call that artificial ADHD.
  - ghodith 3y ago
    ADHD, like many mental health diagnoses, is more of description of a cluster of symptoms than a concrete casual factor. So it makes some sense to use the term as a shorthand to refer to other causes of many of those same symptoms if you lack another easy way to do so. > my understanding ADHD is something you have from the moment you're born to the moment you die Plus ADHD symptoms are known to vary significantly with age so I wouldn't say this is an entirely accurate description either way.
- test6554 3y ago
  I didn’t realize ADHD was like duckface…
micromacrofoot 3y ago
Eh it’s not like being a navy seal is some glamorous elite status so I find that hard to imagine, plus people who are unfit for the military already have an alternative that gives them more power for less effort: policing.
drakenot 3y ago
Is there real evidence of people becoming more fragile? Tons of young people still play sports and are physically active. Maybe it is just the bubble I live in, but kids who are on even rec leagues from 5 years old on are engaged in organized sport activity multiple nights a week.
- austin-cheney 3y ago
  Yes. This is something the military tracks.
  - asimovfan 3y ago
    the military tracks how people are becoming more fragile? how are they measuring this?
    - lukas099 3y ago
      I guess they'd measure injury rates of new recruits.
      - test6554 3y ago
        Have they not considered extending basic training to give peoples bodies more time to get conditioned? If you start out reasonably fit it takes less time. If you are heavier you need a longer runway. Maybe a pre-bootcamp for large people where they introduce basic nutrition and basic exercise. That might actually be a big draw for obese people who want to turn their lives around.
        austin-cheney 3y ago
        How much more time? If the problem is lower bone density or fragile joints it’s already too late.
        NavinF 3y ago
_8j50 3y ago
Unpopular opinion: there should either be mandatory military service (or physically intensive alternatives for conscientous objectors) or a life long military tax for people who don't volunteer to join the military before 25. Not just the issues you described but a lot of social issues rooted in americans not being able to relate with each other or understand each other will be solved.
- tdb7893 3y ago
  Having met a lot of people who have been in the military (including my dad and grandpa and a few other people in my extended family) I don't think military people were any better at relating to or understanding people. For me that's been people I know who are teachers but that's likely because of the sort of people that go into that profession.
  - somenameforme 3y ago
    I don't like his phrasing, but what I think he was referring to was how overcoming some sort of substantial adversity together often creates a strong bond among people, even from entirely different ideologies/backgrounds/etc. When everybody has to go through this it would create a common shared bond. Those in your family who were in the military might not be particularly able to relate to you, but are probably quite capable of relating to themselves or other vets. I am vehemently against hegemony, and how politicians use the military in modern times, but I'd also actually support compulsory military service. Not only do I think the bonds and training would be exceptionally beneficial for society, but it might even help us get back on the right track in terms of this hegemony nonsense. So many people seem somewhere between apathetic and thrilled about endlessly escalating military conflicts around the globe, probably because they never envision themselves being affected by it. Same reason our old enfeebled politicians act like much bigger hard asses than it's like that even warrior kings of times past did. Because it's not like they'll suffer for these wars - the only "hard decision" they have to make is to send people that they couldn't care less about, off to kill and die. War's a lot different when you're not just 'spending' other peoples' lives.
  - austin-cheney 3y ago
SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
The struggle with getting people into the military has very little to do with anything you just talked about. Educational capacity of the public schooling system that feeds the army is also down(states are not investing in public education), single parents are forced to give up guardianship if their kids want to enter the army, you can’t do weed but you can drink, etc.
- giantg2 3y ago
  It does if you dig a little deeper. You have a pool of jobs that require some level of all the mentioned skills/attributes. That pool contains some for civilian positions and for the military. If the candidate pool is shrinking for both, you have increased competition. Civilian positions will pay more because they can, and they generally require less recruiting due to the better conditions. The military needs to ramp up recruiting, increase waivers, etc to meet the same force requirements. It's all inter-related. The main cause is a lower eligible pool of candidates, due to many different issues.
mightyham 3y ago
I hate to be the one who asks for sources, but you really do need to have some solid data to make claims like "In the very near future only a tiny percentage of the American population will be capable of serving". While my experience is anecdotal, your evaluation does not mesh with it at all, which is that people in the military, even officers, are pretty average or less than average in intelligence, and the PT requirements for the army are completely achievable for a normal person with a couple months of training. If you've ever interacted with veterans, it's pretty laughable that they are going to "become the new elite". The elite in America has been and will continue to be people who go to ivy league schools for business, finance, or law and then find jobs in wall street, banks, media, and government.
- jowea 3y ago
  Very quick search > A new study from the Pentagon shows that 77% of young Americans would not qualify for military service without a waiver due to being overweight, using drugs or having mental and physical health problems. > https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/09/28/new-pentagon-study-shows-77-of-young-americans-are-ineligible-military-service.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/09/28/new-pentagon-...
  - eigenket 3y ago
    I mean having a bunch of overweight recruits doesn't sound like a big issue to me? Maybe you need to put them on a diet/exercise regime for a couple of months before they're physically fit enough but that doesn't sound like a huge issue if you're expecting them to serve for years or decades. Obviously physical and mental health problems are a lot more significant but I would imagine that weight is by far the factor that impacts the most people here.
    - jowea 3y ago
      A lot more details here from page 5: https://dacowits.defense.gov/Portals/48/Documents/General%20Documents/RFI%20Docs/June2023/OPA%20RFI%201.pdf?ver=BtY_S_YG5iKf9eAwGZbzzg%3D%3D https://dacowits.defense.gov/Portals/48/Documents/General%20... Note that 44% of people are disqualified for multiple reasons. The big disqualifiers are : Overweight 35% Medical/Physical 33% Drug Abuse 32% Mental Health 25%
jowea 3y ago
So what you're saying is that the US military should advertise in games that you should stop gaming and go play outside?
- test6554 3y ago
  Or that the US military should stock up on that new (impossible to get) weight loss drug. Offer it as an incentive for joining up.
  - jowea 3y ago
    They're already doing something like that: https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/11/23/army-expanding-pre-boot-camp-course-overweight-and-low-scoring-applicants.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/11/23/army-expandin... What this is reminding me of is the British panic around the 1900s about the health of potential military recruits which may have been linked to urbanization.
LinuxBender 3y ago
Adding to this the military was recognizing this issue prior to 2012 and I can't imagine the situation has improved outside of the military. [1] In my opinion the video is worth a watch even to those using a cellphone. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWN13pKVp9s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWN13pKVp9s [video][16m][ted talk with Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]
- xethos 3y ago
  Concerningly, his data for obesity ends at 2009, and is followed by a prediction for 2030. Overlaid with this data is the tagline "By 2030 [...] the U.S. government projects 42 precent obesity nation wide". The CDC shows an obesity prevalence of 41.9%... in 2017-2020 [0]. Meaning a concerning national security threat (per the video) that is accelerating. There are dozens of factors, but I'd be remiss not to put at least one foot on the soapbox and say that a car-centric culture only exacerbates the issue. [0] https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html
sandworm101 3y ago
>> fitness limitations mentally, physically, emotionally, and intellectually. Maybe in the air force or army. I was unaware that the navy had intellectual limitations. As for physical fitness, few in the military are the door-kicking navy seal types. Most jobs are sitting at computers or fixing equipment. The American military focus on physical fitness looks great on posters, but many other countries chuckle a little. The modern battlefield requires deep technical skills more than good abs. US soldiers are also very young, most leaving before even ten years of active service.
- newsclues 3y ago
  Like not every role is a door kicker, there are some navy jobs done by smart people and others done by less academics minded people, but the navy has some of the best electronics warfare specialists and lots of nuclear engineers. The military knows just because you sit at a desk, physical fitness still matters for optimal performance, and many office jobs have secondary duties in emergency that are physically demanding, like fire fighting.
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>People exercise less and focus less. The result is artificially induced ADHD and more physically fragile people less capable of completing initial entry training without severe or catastrophic muscle/bone injuries. Young recruits are too physically unfit, have mental health issues, and take too many drugs, which is why WW3 with China will have to be held in Palworld.
- petre 3y ago
  The alternative is remotely operated mechs, not necessarily the walking type, just like in the 1995 Screamers movie. China has quite enough people it can draft.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >just like in the 1995 Screamers movie Thanks for reminding me to go re-watch it. Seriously, if you don't know it, watch it, it's an underrated sci-fi with the actor from the original RoboCop.
    - petre 3y ago
      It's made after the Second Variety Phillip K Dick story, which is set during a war between the UN and the USSR.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        Thanks, I had no idea. Gonna added to my reading list.

giantg2 3y ago

You have to ramp up your recruiting if your recruiting pool has shrunk (birth rate drop, BMI issues, substance use increase, etc). That's been happening for decades.

seanhunter 3y ago

Do you have a reference for the notion that lifestyle choice is artificially inducing ADHD? I'm interested to learn more.

lukas099 3y ago
Yeah, from my understanding ADHD is something you have from the moment you're born to the moment you die.
- austin-cheney 3y ago
  Normally, yes. Catastrophic brain injuries can also result in ADHD. People who develop identical symptoms to ADHD due to stimulus and conditioning do not actually have ADHD and cannot be treated with medications for ADHD treatment, but otherwise for all practical purposes the real world performance limitations are the same. I call that artificial ADHD.
- ghodith 3y ago
  ADHD, like many mental health diagnoses, is more of description of a cluster of symptoms than a concrete casual factor. So it makes some sense to use the term as a shorthand to refer to other causes of many of those same symptoms if you lack another easy way to do so. > my understanding ADHD is something you have from the moment you're born to the moment you die Plus ADHD symptoms are known to vary significantly with age so I wouldn't say this is an entirely accurate description either way.
test6554 3y ago
I didn’t realize ADHD was like duckface…

micromacrofoot 3y ago

Eh it’s not like being a navy seal is some glamorous elite status so I find that hard to imagine, plus people who are unfit for the military already have an alternative that gives them more power for less effort: policing.

drakenot 3y ago

Is there real evidence of people becoming more fragile? Tons of young people still play sports and are physically active. Maybe it is just the bubble I live in, but kids who are on even rec leagues from 5 years old on are engaged in organized sport activity multiple nights a week.

austin-cheney 3y ago
Yes. This is something the military tracks.
- asimovfan 3y ago
  the military tracks how people are becoming more fragile? how are they measuring this?
  - lukas099 3y ago
    I guess they'd measure injury rates of new recruits.
    - test6554 3y ago
      Have they not considered extending basic training to give peoples bodies more time to get conditioned? If you start out reasonably fit it takes less time. If you are heavier you need a longer runway. Maybe a pre-bootcamp for large people where they introduce basic nutrition and basic exercise. That might actually be a big draw for obese people who want to turn their lives around.
      - austin-cheney 3y ago
        How much more time? If the problem is lower bone density or fragile joints it’s already too late.
        NavinF 3y ago

_8j50 3y ago

Unpopular opinion: there should either be mandatory military service (or physically intensive alternatives for conscientous objectors) or a life long military tax for people who don't volunteer to join the military before 25. Not just the issues you described but a lot of social issues rooted in americans not being able to relate with each other or understand each other will be solved.

tdb7893 3y ago
Having met a lot of people who have been in the military (including my dad and grandpa and a few other people in my extended family) I don't think military people were any better at relating to or understanding people. For me that's been people I know who are teachers but that's likely because of the sort of people that go into that profession.
- somenameforme 3y ago
  I don't like his phrasing, but what I think he was referring to was how overcoming some sort of substantial adversity together often creates a strong bond among people, even from entirely different ideologies/backgrounds/etc. When everybody has to go through this it would create a common shared bond. Those in your family who were in the military might not be particularly able to relate to you, but are probably quite capable of relating to themselves or other vets. I am vehemently against hegemony, and how politicians use the military in modern times, but I'd also actually support compulsory military service. Not only do I think the bonds and training would be exceptionally beneficial for society, but it might even help us get back on the right track in terms of this hegemony nonsense. So many people seem somewhere between apathetic and thrilled about endlessly escalating military conflicts around the globe, probably because they never envision themselves being affected by it. Same reason our old enfeebled politicians act like much bigger hard asses than it's like that even warrior kings of times past did. Because it's not like they'll suffer for these wars - the only "hard decision" they have to make is to send people that they couldn't care less about, off to kill and die. War's a lot different when you're not just 'spending' other peoples' lives.
- austin-cheney 3y ago

SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago

The struggle with getting people into the military has very little to do with anything you just talked about. Educational capacity of the public schooling system that feeds the army is also down(states are not investing in public education), single parents are forced to give up guardianship if their kids want to enter the army, you can’t do weed but you can drink, etc.

giantg2 3y ago
It does if you dig a little deeper. You have a pool of jobs that require some level of all the mentioned skills/attributes. That pool contains some for civilian positions and for the military. If the candidate pool is shrinking for both, you have increased competition. Civilian positions will pay more because they can, and they generally require less recruiting due to the better conditions. The military needs to ramp up recruiting, increase waivers, etc to meet the same force requirements. It's all inter-related. The main cause is a lower eligible pool of candidates, due to many different issues.

mightyham 3y ago

I hate to be the one who asks for sources, but you really do need to have some solid data to make claims like "In the very near future only a tiny percentage of the American population will be capable of serving". While my experience is anecdotal, your evaluation does not mesh with it at all, which is that people in the military, even officers, are pretty average or less than average in intelligence, and the PT requirements for the army are completely achievable for a normal person with a couple months of training. If you've ever interacted with veterans, it's pretty laughable that they are going to "become the new elite". The elite in America has been and will continue to be people who go to ivy league schools for business, finance, or law and then find jobs in wall street, banks, media, and government.

jowea 3y ago
Very quick search > A new study from the Pentagon shows that 77% of young Americans would not qualify for military service without a waiver due to being overweight, using drugs or having mental and physical health problems. > https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/09/28/new-pentagon-study-shows-77-of-young-americans-are-ineligible-military-service.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/09/28/new-pentagon-...
- eigenket 3y ago
  I mean having a bunch of overweight recruits doesn't sound like a big issue to me? Maybe you need to put them on a diet/exercise regime for a couple of months before they're physically fit enough but that doesn't sound like a huge issue if you're expecting them to serve for years or decades. Obviously physical and mental health problems are a lot more significant but I would imagine that weight is by far the factor that impacts the most people here.
  - jowea 3y ago
    A lot more details here from page 5: https://dacowits.defense.gov/Portals/48/Documents/General%20Documents/RFI%20Docs/June2023/OPA%20RFI%201.pdf?ver=BtY_S_YG5iKf9eAwGZbzzg%3D%3D https://dacowits.defense.gov/Portals/48/Documents/General%20... Note that 44% of people are disqualified for multiple reasons. The big disqualifiers are : Overweight 35% Medical/Physical 33% Drug Abuse 32% Mental Health 25%

jowea 3y ago

So what you're saying is that the US military should advertise in games that you should stop gaming and go play outside?

test6554 3y ago
Or that the US military should stock up on that new (impossible to get) weight loss drug. Offer it as an incentive for joining up.
- jowea 3y ago
  They're already doing something like that: https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/11/23/army-expanding-pre-boot-camp-course-overweight-and-low-scoring-applicants.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/11/23/army-expandin... What this is reminding me of is the British panic around the 1900s about the health of potential military recruits which may have been linked to urbanization.

LinuxBender 3y ago

Adding to this the military was recognizing this issue prior to 2012 and I can't imagine the situation has improved outside of the military. [1] In my opinion the video is worth a watch even to those using a cellphone. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWN13pKVp9s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWN13pKVp9s [video][16m][ted talk with Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

xethos 3y ago
Concerningly, his data for obesity ends at 2009, and is followed by a prediction for 2030. Overlaid with this data is the tagline "By 2030 [...] the U.S. government projects 42 precent obesity nation wide". The CDC shows an obesity prevalence of 41.9%... in 2017-2020 [0]. Meaning a concerning national security threat (per the video) that is accelerating. There are dozens of factors, but I'd be remiss not to put at least one foot on the soapbox and say that a car-centric culture only exacerbates the issue. [0] https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html

sandworm101 3y ago

>> fitness limitations mentally, physically, emotionally, and intellectually. Maybe in the air force or army. I was unaware that the navy had intellectual limitations. As for physical fitness, few in the military are the door-kicking navy seal types. Most jobs are sitting at computers or fixing equipment. The American military focus on physical fitness looks great on posters, but many other countries chuckle a little. The modern battlefield requires deep technical skills more than good abs. US soldiers are also very young, most leaving before even ten years of active service.

newsclues 3y ago
Like not every role is a door kicker, there are some navy jobs done by smart people and others done by less academics minded people, but the navy has some of the best electronics warfare specialists and lots of nuclear engineers. The military knows just because you sit at a desk, physical fitness still matters for optimal performance, and many office jobs have secondary duties in emergency that are physically demanding, like fire fighting.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

>People exercise less and focus less. The result is artificially induced ADHD and more physically fragile people less capable of completing initial entry training without severe or catastrophic muscle/bone injuries. Young recruits are too physically unfit, have mental health issues, and take too many drugs, which is why WW3 with China will have to be held in Palworld.

petre 3y ago
The alternative is remotely operated mechs, not necessarily the walking type, just like in the 1995 Screamers movie. China has quite enough people it can draft.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >just like in the 1995 Screamers movie Thanks for reminding me to go re-watch it. Seriously, if you don't know it, watch it, it's an underrated sci-fi with the actor from the original RoboCop.
  - petre 3y ago
    It's made after the Second Variety Phillip K Dick story, which is set during a war between the UN and the USSR.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      Thanks, I had no idea. Gonna added to my reading list.