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This is quite often where people make the greatest mistake. It's all about distribution and customer usage. Most people hate and don't use PWAs. What stands in

This is quite often where people make the greatest mistake. It's all about distribution and customer usage. Most people hate and don't use PWAs. What stands in the way are Native iPhone apps are better. It also goes for android too. That's why PWAs fail. If they were successful Apple would find a way to monetise the hell out of them.

lozenge 3y ago
Most people don't use PWAs... as they exist today. What would happen if Google added all the APIs to Chrome that are needed for every one of their iOS apps, and then offered them as "PWAs that work best with Google Chrome"? Google would not have to abide by App Store rules, nor the rules for app marketplaces, nor pay the Core Technology Fee of half a euro per install. Apple's entire approach of using their status as a popular phone manufacturer to control the software market would fall.
- neximo64 3y ago
  PWA's can do most things: https://whatpwacando.today https://whatpwacando.today. Steve Jobs also preferred PWAs and hated the app store. I'm curious as to ask what they can't do that a native app can do without any workaround whatsoever? I don't know of a single person, ordinary person, who uses PWAs. A Cordova app is a better experience.
  - lozenge 3y ago
    I don't mean just adding an improved notification API, I mean they could literally allow access to the entire SwiftUI and all other iOS APIs from the web. Heck, they could allow PWAs to run in Objective-C instead of JavaScript. At that point it would be indistinguishable from a native app, except that it would not be beholden to Apple's policies like Core Technology Fee, notarisation, payment scare screens, etc ( https://proton.me/blog/apple-dma-compliance-plan-trap https://proton.me/blog/apple-dma-compliance-plan-trap )
    - neximo64 3y ago
      You can use web notifications, and you can compile Objective C to webassembly. You're also able to use apple pay. Everything you've mentioned has a workaround. I'm really getting at how PWAs are basically something most people wouldn't use, not because they're missing APIs but because they're just a terrible experience and difficult to install and use. If its Apple that is holding back PWAs so much, its not that they're any successful on Android either. And then to extend the argument further, "App Clips" or "Instant Apps" aren't much success either from an adoption perspective, despite having full access to the APIs native apps have.
      - anon373839 3y ago
        There is another thing holding PWAs back: they don’t offer as much data mining potential as native apps. A lot of companies sabotage their own web apps just to force you to use the spyware in the App Store, and I’ll admit that isn’t Apple’s fault.
      - wiseowise 3y ago
        > And then to extend the argument further, "App Clips" or "Instant Apps" aren't much success either from an adoption perspective, despite having full access to the APIs native apps have. They never had full access to the APIs native apps have, what are you talking about? Last time I tried to develop instant app on Android (and that was like 4(?) years ago), it didn't have access to network interfaces or something like that. It was a great idea on paper, but terrible in execution.
      - szasamasa 3y ago
        your comment is terrible and a big tell you have no idea of web technology :) there are plenty of web capabilities that have web standards, PWA is not even a thing officially... no such thing as PWA actually, no such thing explicitly as web app, either... "installing" web apps is also non-existent officially, it is a very misleading buzzword if you could call something web app it is a website that was switched to a "standalone UX" from a browser tab UX, according to this non-standard draft (!) https://www.w3.org/TR/appmanifest/ https://www.w3.org/TR/appmanifest/ last time I checked, zero manifest members were mandatory... the ones you would use are "name" and "icon" which is how your homescreen button etc. would show up nothing will be installed (but if we use this word, how on earth is "installation" difficult, you press a button and it is "installed": really fast I guess since nothing will be downloaded extra or installed... all that happens is you get some OS integratin in app discovery UI or a homescreen button or it actually depends on the OS and you can launch the website directly in standalone mode as an "app"... it is still browser run, browser sandboxed etc. just browser UI you have not the real "progressivity" is entangled from standalone... the website may be a beast or a shitty scam site that just wanted homescreen presence and send you notifications (same with native, depends on developers not distribution platform used) so objectively bullshit calling web apps in general terrible, difficult, something people would not use... practically every website is a potential web app if they add a manifest file with 2 members and people use websites all the time... the question is how good a website written, is it responsive, can it do offline etc... there are so many web capabilities now... whether a website or a standalone website is good, easy, something people would use depends 100% on the quality... no website or web app is inherently something you described
  - p_l 3y ago
    I find PWAs great for all those little used or temporary apps. I have a bunch of specialized calculators installed as PWAs - they work great for the purposes. Similarly, there's no reason a conference should have a native app that will only pollute my system over time - PWAs are ideal for once-only events that aren't going to reuse the app for next edition.
    - palata 3y ago
      > temporary apps Can you not install a native app one day, and uninstall it the next day? Or does it not count as "temporary"? Or are PWAs uninstalling automatically somehow?
      - szasamasa 3y ago
        I think what was meant is lightweight. Of course a web app can be heavyweight or lightweight just as a native app. Still in a sense that smaller companies might publish smaller apps as web apps to have only one codebase justifies a web app niche for lightweight apps.
        p_l 3y ago
        Lightweight in interaction pattern and size on the device. Yes, they can load quite a lot of stuff in service worker etc, but it's not the same as coming all at once with everything in application archive.
      - p_l 3y ago
        Native apps have tendency to linger more because of how auto update mechanisms etc will reinstall them after you forgot about them. They have also way more permissions and ways to be exploited against you. Additionally, it's the heavyweight process of installing but also distributing etc of native apps Vs PWAs
      - wiseowise 3y ago
        > Can you not install a native app one day, and uninstall it the next day? Or does it not count as "temporary"? "Don't you guys have phones?" > Or are PWAs uninstalling automatically somehow? They don't weigh 100MBs. I feel extremely privileged to have access to super fast networks, but it doesn't mean that lazy developers get right to hog it all.
  - azangru 3y ago
    > Steve Jobs also preferred PWAs and hated the app store. Steve Jobs died in 2011. None of the apis that make a PWA had been developed by then. How can you know what he preferred or hated?
    - collaborative 3y ago
      I think he's referring to the justifications Steve Jobs gave to kill Flash. Apparently, it was because he really wanted a complete web standard that didn't revolve a particular framework. Apple then introduced the App Store and forgot all about its desire for (complete) web standards So apple has killed both Flash and (useful) web standards and we are left with unnecessary, gate-keeping, expensive, price gauging App Stores. Hypocrisy at its finest. But at least it's got an Apple on it, so I guess it's fine It used to be possible to "grow" stuff online. People made a living from developing Flash games (and websites). Aggregators competed and paid well for content. It's now all going to Apple's shareholders and Wall Street, and it's a complete waste of time to develop anything that needs publishing via the App Store. What a sad state of affairs
    - incrudible 3y ago
      People often forget this, but before the App Store, the idea was that you would use HTML apps, added to the homescreen. It was in the very first iPhone. It was not called PWA then, and technically a PWA need not be a homescreen app either. Whether Steve hated the App Store I do not know, but it was not in his original vision for the iPhone.
      - michaelt 3y ago
        Maybe. Or maybe they knew things like the ipaq had third-party software, and they didn't have time to add such capabilities in time for launch, so they only encouraged PWAs as an interim measure.
  - vdaea 3y ago
    What PWA Can Not Do Today: stick out like a sore thumb.
  - troupo 3y ago
    > PWA's can do most things: https://whatpwacando.today https://whatpwacando.today. At least half of those things are "not on any standards track" and are Chrome-only non-standards. (But sure let's hear the wail that Safari is the new IE or something)
- szasamasa 3y ago
  It may have to do something that if you cannot trust Apple not to break web apps like they are planning to do now, companies will not invest in web apps. Also, most companies have native apps already... Web apps are the future competitor, not present.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    Yes because Apple never breaks native apps… Do you remember when they completely removed 32 bit app support from iOS. People on HN want to make every excuse in the world for why PWAs on Android aren’t more popular and how it’s Apple’s fault.
    - szasamasa 3y ago
      it is not breaking native apps, it is pushing you to update your tech... currently you cannot update some code for your website to work offline on iOS like there is a competition... few companies have great websites/web apps and if a native app worked, people will not abandon it for a web version of course... the competition you claim web apps lost (even on android) has not yet even started :) in a very huge article-like top level comment I wrote about how this "install" web apps is misleading and comparing native apps directly to web technology web technology is not all about apps... I just checked one good example: hover.com has no native app, never had... they made the website work on all screen sizes. actually I never cared if they have web manifest implemented so that I can switch them to standalone (web app, vow)... now I see I could do this but I will not because this particular domain I choose to use NOT standalone (not as an app) but from the browser... it is a well written website that could be used standalone but since I rarely use it and from linux desktop, I do not care actually, web manifest is a draft not a web standard yet: https://www.w3.org/TR/appmanifest/ https://www.w3.org/TR/appmanifest/ all it does (what some people love to call "install") is initiating standalone usage and you can get a home screen button each and every web capability practically has its own standard... caching and offline websites are possible via service workers, orthogonal to standalone and "web app" what I want to say it is not that simple that web app vs. native... hover does not pay Apple or Google because they were capable of responsive design... if you use a service like it every day or standalone is crucial or your choice of using it, use it that way, it is still run in your chosen browser sandbox whether you hide browser UI or not it is about choice and it is about the future... what I can tell you knowing web capabilities well, 99% of the time it is possible to deliver the same experiences with a browser as native apps deliver the web is an alternative, even for standalone experiences (apps)... it may be like linux and stay niche or become like chromium time will tell
- szasamasa 3y ago
  It may have to do something with the fact that if you cannot trust Apple not to break web apps like they are planning to do now, companies will not invest in web apps. Also, most companies have native apps already so no need to reproduce them. Web apps are a future competitor, not a present one. They are really suited for smaller cross platform projects but if you follow how the web evolves, nowadays they are just a serious thing to consider for any kinds of software projects.
holoduke 3y ago
Our apps are available as webapps. 100% identical user experience. All functionality. Including notifications, offline, storage, performance and more. We have over 50m installs. Where do you get your info from? Really curious.
phartenfeller 3y ago
I agree that native apps can offer better experiences and often do because they get more development effort. I disagree that most people hate PWAs because they are just websites. I think many mix bad websites with "PWA is a bad technology". All the cookie banners, ads and prompts to install the native app are the reason the experience is worse. What could a native app for Wikipedia, Google or a basic news pages (without ads) do better? I use the Twitter PWA for years as it saves battery and offers the same experience. Maybe animations are not as smooth but most people won't even notice that. I also rather use YouTube in Firefox mobile so I can use uBlock even though the app offers more features and generally more ambition. For hardware heavy use cases native apps are obviously better. Also when companies push people to install the native apps for quick access, push notifications and better data collection you can't take customer usage as a metric for people's taste.
- anon373839 3y ago
  > I think many mix bad websites with "PWA is a bad technology". Exactly. I put together a demo a few years ago that employed somewhat novel interaction design to showcase some machine learning tech. A number of people were gobsmacked by it and asked endless questions about what framework it was built with. I didn't use a framework. I dug into the deep recesses of CSS to make it do what I wanted. Really, you can accomplish almost anything with HTML/CSS/JS/SVG (though I'll admit it might be painful).
  - szasamasa 3y ago
    actually, you can do everything with js js web api-s have become so powerful (web animation instead of css) of course you have to know what dom is (and there is cssom as well, modifiable via js) but it took me some time to realize all you need is js (and understand what js-async really is)... actually I love the js async model for UI the only problem is that js is a scripting language... some may use typescript for stronger types but what I would love to have and will never come since all web API is for js is a new language... however, you can use webassembly for critical frontend tasks (like stockfish chess engine on lichess) or actually last time I checked V8 was so optimized that good js code was practically not inferior to webassebly or native...
wiseowise 3y ago
The only reason why I would install native application is if it's the only way of distribution and I absolutely NEED to use it (banking, government, etc.), for everything else if it's not in a browser - it doesn't exist to me. Native applications might offer marginal performance boost, but given how optimized modern web is and how powerful are devices that I use - that's not an argument to me unless I do something computing intensive. I don't know how incredibly self-centered and obtuse you might be to think that your specific crud #383835 is not like all those other™ crud apps and absolutely requires a native application. In a browser I can: * Freely select ANY text(unless for some reason some special snowflake website thinks that it needs to disable text selection) * Bookmark, add tags, sort, organize websites how I want * Sync all of my information and access it on all platforms, not platforms that vendor decided to lock me in * Add plugins that allow me to modify and work with content how I see fit * Prohibit JS, ads or any sorts of tracking And probably at least another 10 things if I think longer than 2 minutes about it. All of this is just from perspective of a user. If I were to write from perspective of a developer, that would take a whole blogpost to explain how native applications are relic of the past and should just roll over and die.
- szasamasa 3y ago
  totally agree in the end, freedom of choice, diversity and innovation would make every service find its optimal incarnation (native or web) in addition, web security is actually so robust via sandboxing that I feel more secure in a top browser on any web domains than downloading stuff from app stores native apps have a built in "layer" of bot security, however... a website has to implement security itself because even a smart fridge can make GET requests :) but I just play the devil's lawyer... I think 999 out of 1000 "standalone UX" better off delivered from the web
- rubymamis 3y ago
  I highly disagree. Web apps are notoriously slow. I'm developing a Notion alternative in Qt C++ that load large text files on my 2017 MacBook Air while on my friend's 2021 M1 Pro, the fastest web based block editor (MarkText) takes around 11x longer to load the same file. So, essentialy, my 2017 MacBook Air is FASTER just due to more efficient software. Why are we allowing this degradation of software? Each time I think about opening Spotify (Electron) on my desktop, I dread the loading time and the RAM it would use. For very simple apps, frameworks like Tauri should do the job. But for complex applications, let's please not lose our benchmarking standards. My app: https://www.get-plume.com/ https://www.get-plume.com/
kibwen 3y ago
If PWAs are so bad, why is Apple utterly terrified at the idea of letting them compete with native apps? I avoid native apps at every turn. If an app is only available natively, I look for a competitor who offers a web version. Finding native apps is a mess compared to finding a website; it's truly impressive how app stores still manage to have worse search results than Google despite Google's quality plummeting. Installing native apps is a hassle. Managing permissions is a hassle. Dealing with their internal ads is a hassle.
- manuelabeledo 3y ago
  This is an odd take. Native apps are usually just better looking and more performant.
  - kibwen 3y ago
    To me, the odd take is thinking that the point of an app is to look good.
    - manuelabeledo 3y ago
      It is not, it's just an attribute, arguably important to the success of the app.
    - troupo 3y ago
      Yes. Yes, among other things the point of the app is to look good: be fluid, performant, responsive and conform to the platform look and feel and HIGs. All the things that web apps objectively fail to do.
      - kibwen 3y ago
        And if I can't find the app because of the awful app store interface, and if it's stealing my information by demanding permissions that it doesn't need, and if it's showing me ads that I can't block, and if it's bothering me with constant updates, why should I care if it's "fluid"? The goal of software is not to look pretty, it's to be functional. Web apps are more functional than native apps by my metrics. I do not care if it's less fluid, because I use software to do things.
deergomoo 3y ago
I almost universally prefer native apps, and I'm also an iPhone user, but it's hard to claim PWAs are unpopular on their own merits when Apple has seemingly deliberately stifled them. On Android you can go to a mobile webpage and see a fairly unintrusive, one-time banner which will let you install it to the homescreen. Sure it's only two taps on iOS (Share -> Add to homescreen), but for a start your users need to know that functionality even exists, which alone is a massive roadblock to adoption. As a user, if I want to get notifications and an "app-ish" experience, and the developer is unable or unwilling to create decent platform-specific apps, I would happily take a PWA over a "native" app that is actually just an embedded web view or something trying to recreate the world like Flutter. If I'm not gonna get the benefits of my chosen platform, I'd at least like to not also have to deal with the downsides of App Store apps, like large install sizes and stuff getting held up or nerfed by app review. I recognise that giving PWAs unimpeded access to the core capabilities that native apps have might result in a worse offering of native apps—as more developers choose to just not bother—but then I'd say it's on Apple (and Google!) to step up and make native a more compelling option. Any veteran iOS developer will agree there's an enormous list of stuff dying for improvement in the development and submission process.

lozenge 3y ago

Most people don't use PWAs... as they exist today. What would happen if Google added all the APIs to Chrome that are needed for every one of their iOS apps, and then offered them as "PWAs that work best with Google Chrome"? Google would not have to abide by App Store rules, nor the rules for app marketplaces, nor pay the Core Technology Fee of half a euro per install. Apple's entire approach of using their status as a popular phone manufacturer to control the software market would fall.

neximo64 3y ago
PWA's can do most things: https://whatpwacando.today https://whatpwacando.today. Steve Jobs also preferred PWAs and hated the app store. I'm curious as to ask what they can't do that a native app can do without any workaround whatsoever? I don't know of a single person, ordinary person, who uses PWAs. A Cordova app is a better experience.
- lozenge 3y ago
  I don't mean just adding an improved notification API, I mean they could literally allow access to the entire SwiftUI and all other iOS APIs from the web. Heck, they could allow PWAs to run in Objective-C instead of JavaScript. At that point it would be indistinguishable from a native app, except that it would not be beholden to Apple's policies like Core Technology Fee, notarisation, payment scare screens, etc ( https://proton.me/blog/apple-dma-compliance-plan-trap https://proton.me/blog/apple-dma-compliance-plan-trap )
  - neximo64 3y ago
    You can use web notifications, and you can compile Objective C to webassembly. You're also able to use apple pay. Everything you've mentioned has a workaround. I'm really getting at how PWAs are basically something most people wouldn't use, not because they're missing APIs but because they're just a terrible experience and difficult to install and use. If its Apple that is holding back PWAs so much, its not that they're any successful on Android either. And then to extend the argument further, "App Clips" or "Instant Apps" aren't much success either from an adoption perspective, despite having full access to the APIs native apps have.
    - anon373839 3y ago
      There is another thing holding PWAs back: they don’t offer as much data mining potential as native apps. A lot of companies sabotage their own web apps just to force you to use the spyware in the App Store, and I’ll admit that isn’t Apple’s fault.
    - wiseowise 3y ago
      > And then to extend the argument further, "App Clips" or "Instant Apps" aren't much success either from an adoption perspective, despite having full access to the APIs native apps have. They never had full access to the APIs native apps have, what are you talking about? Last time I tried to develop instant app on Android (and that was like 4(?) years ago), it didn't have access to network interfaces or something like that. It was a great idea on paper, but terrible in execution.
    - szasamasa 3y ago
      your comment is terrible and a big tell you have no idea of web technology :) there are plenty of web capabilities that have web standards, PWA is not even a thing officially... no such thing as PWA actually, no such thing explicitly as web app, either... "installing" web apps is also non-existent officially, it is a very misleading buzzword if you could call something web app it is a website that was switched to a "standalone UX" from a browser tab UX, according to this non-standard draft (!) https://www.w3.org/TR/appmanifest/ https://www.w3.org/TR/appmanifest/ last time I checked, zero manifest members were mandatory... the ones you would use are "name" and "icon" which is how your homescreen button etc. would show up nothing will be installed (but if we use this word, how on earth is "installation" difficult, you press a button and it is "installed": really fast I guess since nothing will be downloaded extra or installed... all that happens is you get some OS integratin in app discovery UI or a homescreen button or it actually depends on the OS and you can launch the website directly in standalone mode as an "app"... it is still browser run, browser sandboxed etc. just browser UI you have not the real "progressivity" is entangled from standalone... the website may be a beast or a shitty scam site that just wanted homescreen presence and send you notifications (same with native, depends on developers not distribution platform used) so objectively bullshit calling web apps in general terrible, difficult, something people would not use... practically every website is a potential web app if they add a manifest file with 2 members and people use websites all the time... the question is how good a website written, is it responsive, can it do offline etc... there are so many web capabilities now... whether a website or a standalone website is good, easy, something people would use depends 100% on the quality... no website or web app is inherently something you described
- p_l 3y ago
  I find PWAs great for all those little used or temporary apps. I have a bunch of specialized calculators installed as PWAs - they work great for the purposes. Similarly, there's no reason a conference should have a native app that will only pollute my system over time - PWAs are ideal for once-only events that aren't going to reuse the app for next edition.
  - palata 3y ago
    > temporary apps Can you not install a native app one day, and uninstall it the next day? Or does it not count as "temporary"? Or are PWAs uninstalling automatically somehow?
    - szasamasa 3y ago
      I think what was meant is lightweight. Of course a web app can be heavyweight or lightweight just as a native app. Still in a sense that smaller companies might publish smaller apps as web apps to have only one codebase justifies a web app niche for lightweight apps.
      - p_l 3y ago
        Lightweight in interaction pattern and size on the device. Yes, they can load quite a lot of stuff in service worker etc, but it's not the same as coming all at once with everything in application archive.
    - p_l 3y ago
      Native apps have tendency to linger more because of how auto update mechanisms etc will reinstall them after you forgot about them. They have also way more permissions and ways to be exploited against you. Additionally, it's the heavyweight process of installing but also distributing etc of native apps Vs PWAs
    - wiseowise 3y ago
      > Can you not install a native app one day, and uninstall it the next day? Or does it not count as "temporary"? "Don't you guys have phones?" > Or are PWAs uninstalling automatically somehow? They don't weigh 100MBs. I feel extremely privileged to have access to super fast networks, but it doesn't mean that lazy developers get right to hog it all.
- azangru 3y ago
  > Steve Jobs also preferred PWAs and hated the app store. Steve Jobs died in 2011. None of the apis that make a PWA had been developed by then. How can you know what he preferred or hated?
  - collaborative 3y ago
    I think he's referring to the justifications Steve Jobs gave to kill Flash. Apparently, it was because he really wanted a complete web standard that didn't revolve a particular framework. Apple then introduced the App Store and forgot all about its desire for (complete) web standards So apple has killed both Flash and (useful) web standards and we are left with unnecessary, gate-keeping, expensive, price gauging App Stores. Hypocrisy at its finest. But at least it's got an Apple on it, so I guess it's fine It used to be possible to "grow" stuff online. People made a living from developing Flash games (and websites). Aggregators competed and paid well for content. It's now all going to Apple's shareholders and Wall Street, and it's a complete waste of time to develop anything that needs publishing via the App Store. What a sad state of affairs
  - incrudible 3y ago
    People often forget this, but before the App Store, the idea was that you would use HTML apps, added to the homescreen. It was in the very first iPhone. It was not called PWA then, and technically a PWA need not be a homescreen app either. Whether Steve hated the App Store I do not know, but it was not in his original vision for the iPhone.
    - michaelt 3y ago
      Maybe. Or maybe they knew things like the ipaq had third-party software, and they didn't have time to add such capabilities in time for launch, so they only encouraged PWAs as an interim measure.
- vdaea 3y ago
  What PWA Can Not Do Today: stick out like a sore thumb.
- troupo 3y ago
  > PWA's can do most things: https://whatpwacando.today https://whatpwacando.today. At least half of those things are "not on any standards track" and are Chrome-only non-standards. (But sure let's hear the wail that Safari is the new IE or something)
szasamasa 3y ago
It may have to do something that if you cannot trust Apple not to break web apps like they are planning to do now, companies will not invest in web apps. Also, most companies have native apps already... Web apps are the future competitor, not present.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  Yes because Apple never breaks native apps… Do you remember when they completely removed 32 bit app support from iOS. People on HN want to make every excuse in the world for why PWAs on Android aren’t more popular and how it’s Apple’s fault.
  - szasamasa 3y ago
    it is not breaking native apps, it is pushing you to update your tech... currently you cannot update some code for your website to work offline on iOS like there is a competition... few companies have great websites/web apps and if a native app worked, people will not abandon it for a web version of course... the competition you claim web apps lost (even on android) has not yet even started :) in a very huge article-like top level comment I wrote about how this "install" web apps is misleading and comparing native apps directly to web technology web technology is not all about apps... I just checked one good example: hover.com has no native app, never had... they made the website work on all screen sizes. actually I never cared if they have web manifest implemented so that I can switch them to standalone (web app, vow)... now I see I could do this but I will not because this particular domain I choose to use NOT standalone (not as an app) but from the browser... it is a well written website that could be used standalone but since I rarely use it and from linux desktop, I do not care actually, web manifest is a draft not a web standard yet: https://www.w3.org/TR/appmanifest/ https://www.w3.org/TR/appmanifest/ all it does (what some people love to call "install") is initiating standalone usage and you can get a home screen button each and every web capability practically has its own standard... caching and offline websites are possible via service workers, orthogonal to standalone and "web app" what I want to say it is not that simple that web app vs. native... hover does not pay Apple or Google because they were capable of responsive design... if you use a service like it every day or standalone is crucial or your choice of using it, use it that way, it is still run in your chosen browser sandbox whether you hide browser UI or not it is about choice and it is about the future... what I can tell you knowing web capabilities well, 99% of the time it is possible to deliver the same experiences with a browser as native apps deliver the web is an alternative, even for standalone experiences (apps)... it may be like linux and stay niche or become like chromium time will tell
szasamasa 3y ago
It may have to do something with the fact that if you cannot trust Apple not to break web apps like they are planning to do now, companies will not invest in web apps. Also, most companies have native apps already so no need to reproduce them. Web apps are a future competitor, not a present one. They are really suited for smaller cross platform projects but if you follow how the web evolves, nowadays they are just a serious thing to consider for any kinds of software projects.

holoduke 3y ago

Our apps are available as webapps. 100% identical user experience. All functionality. Including notifications, offline, storage, performance and more. We have over 50m installs. Where do you get your info from? Really curious.

phartenfeller 3y ago

I agree that native apps can offer better experiences and often do because they get more development effort. I disagree that most people hate PWAs because they are just websites. I think many mix bad websites with "PWA is a bad technology". All the cookie banners, ads and prompts to install the native app are the reason the experience is worse. What could a native app for Wikipedia, Google or a basic news pages (without ads) do better? I use the Twitter PWA for years as it saves battery and offers the same experience. Maybe animations are not as smooth but most people won't even notice that. I also rather use YouTube in Firefox mobile so I can use uBlock even though the app offers more features and generally more ambition. For hardware heavy use cases native apps are obviously better. Also when companies push people to install the native apps for quick access, push notifications and better data collection you can't take customer usage as a metric for people's taste.

anon373839 3y ago
> I think many mix bad websites with "PWA is a bad technology". Exactly. I put together a demo a few years ago that employed somewhat novel interaction design to showcase some machine learning tech. A number of people were gobsmacked by it and asked endless questions about what framework it was built with. I didn't use a framework. I dug into the deep recesses of CSS to make it do what I wanted. Really, you can accomplish almost anything with HTML/CSS/JS/SVG (though I'll admit it might be painful).
- szasamasa 3y ago
  actually, you can do everything with js js web api-s have become so powerful (web animation instead of css) of course you have to know what dom is (and there is cssom as well, modifiable via js) but it took me some time to realize all you need is js (and understand what js-async really is)... actually I love the js async model for UI the only problem is that js is a scripting language... some may use typescript for stronger types but what I would love to have and will never come since all web API is for js is a new language... however, you can use webassembly for critical frontend tasks (like stockfish chess engine on lichess) or actually last time I checked V8 was so optimized that good js code was practically not inferior to webassebly or native...

wiseowise 3y ago

The only reason why I would install native application is if it's the only way of distribution and I absolutely NEED to use it (banking, government, etc.), for everything else if it's not in a browser - it doesn't exist to me. Native applications might offer marginal performance boost, but given how optimized modern web is and how powerful are devices that I use - that's not an argument to me unless I do something computing intensive. I don't know how incredibly self-centered and obtuse you might be to think that your specific crud #383835 is not like all those other™ crud apps and absolutely requires a native application. In a browser I can: * Freely select ANY text(unless for some reason some special snowflake website thinks that it needs to disable text selection) * Bookmark, add tags, sort, organize websites how I want * Sync all of my information and access it on all platforms, not platforms that vendor decided to lock me in * Add plugins that allow me to modify and work with content how I see fit * Prohibit JS, ads or any sorts of tracking And probably at least another 10 things if I think longer than 2 minutes about it. All of this is just from perspective of a user. If I were to write from perspective of a developer, that would take a whole blogpost to explain how native applications are relic of the past and should just roll over and die.

szasamasa 3y ago
totally agree in the end, freedom of choice, diversity and innovation would make every service find its optimal incarnation (native or web) in addition, web security is actually so robust via sandboxing that I feel more secure in a top browser on any web domains than downloading stuff from app stores native apps have a built in "layer" of bot security, however... a website has to implement security itself because even a smart fridge can make GET requests :) but I just play the devil's lawyer... I think 999 out of 1000 "standalone UX" better off delivered from the web
rubymamis 3y ago
I highly disagree. Web apps are notoriously slow. I'm developing a Notion alternative in Qt C++ that load large text files on my 2017 MacBook Air while on my friend's 2021 M1 Pro, the fastest web based block editor (MarkText) takes around 11x longer to load the same file. So, essentialy, my 2017 MacBook Air is FASTER just due to more efficient software. Why are we allowing this degradation of software? Each time I think about opening Spotify (Electron) on my desktop, I dread the loading time and the RAM it would use. For very simple apps, frameworks like Tauri should do the job. But for complex applications, let's please not lose our benchmarking standards. My app: https://www.get-plume.com/ https://www.get-plume.com/

kibwen 3y ago

If PWAs are so bad, why is Apple utterly terrified at the idea of letting them compete with native apps? I avoid native apps at every turn. If an app is only available natively, I look for a competitor who offers a web version. Finding native apps is a mess compared to finding a website; it's truly impressive how app stores still manage to have worse search results than Google despite Google's quality plummeting. Installing native apps is a hassle. Managing permissions is a hassle. Dealing with their internal ads is a hassle.

manuelabeledo 3y ago
This is an odd take. Native apps are usually just better looking and more performant.
- kibwen 3y ago
  To me, the odd take is thinking that the point of an app is to look good.
  - manuelabeledo 3y ago
    It is not, it's just an attribute, arguably important to the success of the app.
  - troupo 3y ago
    Yes. Yes, among other things the point of the app is to look good: be fluid, performant, responsive and conform to the platform look and feel and HIGs. All the things that web apps objectively fail to do.
    - kibwen 3y ago
      And if I can't find the app because of the awful app store interface, and if it's stealing my information by demanding permissions that it doesn't need, and if it's showing me ads that I can't block, and if it's bothering me with constant updates, why should I care if it's "fluid"? The goal of software is not to look pretty, it's to be functional. Web apps are more functional than native apps by my metrics. I do not care if it's less fluid, because I use software to do things.

deergomoo 3y ago

I almost universally prefer native apps, and I'm also an iPhone user, but it's hard to claim PWAs are unpopular on their own merits when Apple has seemingly deliberately stifled them. On Android you can go to a mobile webpage and see a fairly unintrusive, one-time banner which will let you install it to the homescreen. Sure it's only two taps on iOS (Share -> Add to homescreen), but for a start your users need to know that functionality even exists, which alone is a massive roadblock to adoption. As a user, if I want to get notifications and an "app-ish" experience, and the developer is unable or unwilling to create decent platform-specific apps, I would happily take a PWA over a "native" app that is actually just an embedded web view or something trying to recreate the world like Flutter. If I'm not gonna get the benefits of my chosen platform, I'd at least like to not also have to deal with the downsides of App Store apps, like large install sizes and stuff getting held up or nerfed by app review. I recognise that giving PWAs unimpeded access to the core capabilities that native apps have might result in a worse offering of native apps—as more developers choose to just not bother—but then I'd say it's on Apple (and Google!) to step up and make native a more compelling option. Any veteran iOS developer will agree there's an enormous list of stuff dying for improvement in the development and submission process.