7 ms·

Navalty had some pretty scary things to say about Ukraine as well. To summarize: He thought there are no differences between Ukranian people and Russian people,

by SEJeff 3y ago

Navalty had some pretty scary things to say about Ukraine as well. To summarize: He thought there are no differences between Ukranian people and Russian people, he thinks that Crimea is rightfully Russia's (finder's keepers!), and he thinks it would be nice for Belarus and Ukraine to just be absorbed by Russia and become part of Russia again. He was only against the war in Ukraine when it became obvious it was not going to be a three day one and done operation.

ncr100 3y ago
I'm not sure that's an accurate reflection of the man's views. Your sequencing is not construable to a new fact. He did recant any notion of Ukrainians being Russian. He also asserted ukrainians Right to independent self-governing.
- HenryBemis 3y ago
  I remember watching a documentary about his life, and in his early years he has expressed some "extreme-right"/nationalist views. I assume that he was click-baiting anyone who would hear him, gathering fame and fortune. Eventually he was recognised as a 'potentially worthy' opponent of Putin and was given the support and guidance to become what he became. (Majority of) Russians are 'different'. They don't care to change. They don't understand the "modern" way of life. They don't understand the new/modern approaches of 'diversity'. (Understand = it conflicts with their ideology, traditions, mindset - of course they understand and simply disagree). In Russia, historically, the easiest way to solve a problem is to eliminate the person behind the problem, and the problem will solve itself. I has been done like that for centuries, and I don't feel that this will change anytime soon.
- tivert 3y ago
  > I'm not sure that's an accurate reflection of the man's views. Your sequencing is not construable to a new fact. > He did recant any notion of Ukrainians being Russian. He also asserted ukrainians Right to independent self-governing. I never followed Navalny very closely, but my understanding was he opposed Putin but he was also a Russian nationalist, so (at least pre-2022) there wasn't tons of distance between them on the topic of Ukraine. Since Trump and especially since the more recent invasion of Ukraine, I think there's been a tendency for Western liberals to concentrate on Putin, oppose him, and therefore idealize his opponents as being and thinking just like themselves. So the liberals would tend to avoid thinking about certain uncomfortable facts, and Navalny may have been incentivized to conform to their views (given he was in prison and his main protection was the attention and sympathy of foreign liberals)
  - SEJeff 3y ago
    Your understand is spot on. I give a few examples in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39403310 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39403310
  - kjellsbells 3y ago
    s/liberals//g Has happened over and over again that the Western political class prioritizes alignment with some entity on some short term goal over checking that the entity shares any other sentiments. And then being all surprised-pikachu when they dont. US funding mujahideen against the Soviets. Israel funding Hamas to keep the PA weak. Europe lauding Aung Sang Suu Kyi in Myanmar etc. Any time you see a puff piece in mainstream Western media about some leader abroad that "we find we can work with" or has similar cheese, beware.
    - lr1970 3y ago
      You can add Juan Guido in Venezuela (sorry if misspelled his name)
  - bonzini 3y ago
    It was always pretty clear that he wasn't a saint. At some point Amnesty International felt compelled to clarify that their sympathy for Navalny began and ended with him being poisoned and imprisoned.
  - roenxi 3y ago
    > there's been a tendency for Western liberals to concentrate on Putin, oppose him, and therefore idealize his opponents Seems to depend on whether someone believes Russia's security interests have some level of legitimacy. If the war is unfounded then it is an act of madness and the motivation is probably attributable to a single charismatic individual (and Putin must be that person). The view is part of the "Russia's unprovoked attack on Ukraine!" narrative. If Russian has legitimate security interests in the region then it doesn't matter so much who the president is and Putin's role in events is important but it is likely others would have made the same choice.
- SEJeff 3y ago
  Navalny has always been a supporter of a concept referred to as "Russkiy Mir"[1] and has spoke at length about it. It is a weird ethno religious philosophy which shows the bounds of the russian country extend far past the borders of teh russian federation. The closest I can easily describe it is as a weird western version of jihad where they want to assume all other cultures and erase them in favor of expansion of their own via multiple methods. In 2007, in a Russian "Gun Rights" video, Navalny compared the Chechen muslims to "cockroaches and flies" and said he wanted to exterminate them. A picture of a Chechen muslim appears on the screen and he shoots it with a pistol. In another [2] video it featured Navalny dressed as a dentist, presenting a slightly confusing parable that likened interethnic conflict in Russia to cavities and argued that fascism can be prevented only by deporting migrants from Russia. Navalny closed his monologue with “We have a right to be [ethnic] Russians in Russia. And we will defend this right.” This is an allegory to killing all non-ethnic Russians. In 2008 when Russia invaded the country of Georgia. He said[3]: Of course, there is a big desire to fire a cruise missile at the General Staff of the [derogative name for Georgians], but they are just waiting for this. Years later, he apologized for the ethnic slur denoting Georgian people, but never for his support of the Russian war on Georgia. In an interview with Echo of Moscow radio station in October 2014, Navalny admitted that the peninsula had been seized through “outrageous violations of all international norms”, and yet asserted that it would “remain part of Russia” and would “never become part of Ukraine in the foreseeable future”. His statement was not simply an assessment of the developments around Crimea. When pressed on whether he would return Crimea to Ukraine were he to become Russia’s president, Navalny wrapped his “No” in an odd question: “What? Is Crimea a sandwich or something that you can take and give back?” His position on Crimea was basically, "finders keepers." Also in 2014, here[4] he is using one of the worst ethnic slurs for Ukrainians making fun of them. In 2016, Navalny said that he intended to hold a "normal" referendum in Russian-occupied Crimea if he won the Russian presidential election. Note that Russia has forcibly killed or deported many/most ethnic Tatar peoples and native Ukrainians from Crimea. They've allowed Russian people to come occupy it and settle the lands, so by definition, any referendum would be with invaders on invaded territory. It would be a sham. In 2023, he offered a 15 point "manifesto"[5] where he changed tac quite a bit, but this was after some prominent navalnyists were pissing off western journalists with their staunch anti-ukraine message, all in line with Russkiy Mir. I can go on and on and on, but his support of violence and cleansing the world of non-russians goes back a long time. I just spent a few minutes to find these but if you dig in you can find the same and more. [1] https://dgap.org/en/events/russkiy-mir-russian-world https://dgap.org/en/events/russkiy-mir-russian-world [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICoc2VmGdfw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICoc2VmGdfw [3] https://navalny.livejournal.com/274456.html https://navalny.livejournal.com/274456.html [4] https://twitter.com/navalny/status/505215151961014272 https://twitter.com/navalny/status/505215151961014272 [5] https://twitter.com/navalny/status/1627632098608644099 https://twitter.com/navalny/status/1627632098608644099
- breather 3y ago
  This all may be true, but he still has a track record as an expansionist, as nationalist, as islamophobic, and as ethno-nationalist. He may not have presented much of a change in Russia's behavior the way the western press has implied he might have.
screenoridesaga 3y ago
[flagged]
saiya-jin 3y ago
Care to provide some links apart from 'they said it on fox news'? Its exactly the type of narrative putin would like to push to marginalize another high profile murder, and we have seen he can be an expert with playing foreign powers and media against each other
- SEJeff 3y ago
  See my followup here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39403310 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39403310
holoduke 3y ago
[flagged]
- attentive 3y ago
  "some language differences", my god.
  - SEJeff 3y ago
    To him this is likely "a mild disagreement" as ukrainian civilians are being actively targeted by Russian missiles. Quite a tone deaf and horrible point of view.
    - holoduke 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - midasz 3y ago
        The ICC has arrest warrants out for Putin for his war crimes. I really can't believe you're wilfully this ignorant to say there has been no civilian targetting. How are cluster bombs on cities not pure indiscriminate murder?
        holoduke 3y ago
        Where are russian cluster bombs on cities happened? I thought the US provided Ukraine with cluster and gave them green light to start.
        sergeykish 3y ago
        Search video. For example, Kharkiv was targeted by cluster ammunition, that's norm. Moscow terrors to drive out disloyal population, to hinder economy, to distract defenses from the front. "Poland forced Germany to attack" (1939) by Putin, Moscow propaganda supports genocide. Atrocities in Bucha, Izum is result. Relatives? They speak nothing or support "liberation" by occupants.
surfingdino 3y ago
Some people in the West really tried to make him the face of opposition in Russia, but he was unpalatable to Eastern Europe, which no longer is a part of the world that doesn't count. The West, Western Europe in particular has to realign its diplomatic strategy and stop ignoring countries located between Moscow and Berlin.
MUhito 3y ago
[dead]

by SEJeff 3y ago

ncr100 3y ago

I'm not sure that's an accurate reflection of the man's views. Your sequencing is not construable to a new fact. He did recant any notion of Ukrainians being Russian. He also asserted ukrainians Right to independent self-governing.

HenryBemis 3y ago
I remember watching a documentary about his life, and in his early years he has expressed some "extreme-right"/nationalist views. I assume that he was click-baiting anyone who would hear him, gathering fame and fortune. Eventually he was recognised as a 'potentially worthy' opponent of Putin and was given the support and guidance to become what he became. (Majority of) Russians are 'different'. They don't care to change. They don't understand the "modern" way of life. They don't understand the new/modern approaches of 'diversity'. (Understand = it conflicts with their ideology, traditions, mindset - of course they understand and simply disagree). In Russia, historically, the easiest way to solve a problem is to eliminate the person behind the problem, and the problem will solve itself. I has been done like that for centuries, and I don't feel that this will change anytime soon.
tivert 3y ago
> I'm not sure that's an accurate reflection of the man's views. Your sequencing is not construable to a new fact. > He did recant any notion of Ukrainians being Russian. He also asserted ukrainians Right to independent self-governing. I never followed Navalny very closely, but my understanding was he opposed Putin but he was also a Russian nationalist, so (at least pre-2022) there wasn't tons of distance between them on the topic of Ukraine. Since Trump and especially since the more recent invasion of Ukraine, I think there's been a tendency for Western liberals to concentrate on Putin, oppose him, and therefore idealize his opponents as being and thinking just like themselves. So the liberals would tend to avoid thinking about certain uncomfortable facts, and Navalny may have been incentivized to conform to their views (given he was in prison and his main protection was the attention and sympathy of foreign liberals)
- SEJeff 3y ago
  Your understand is spot on. I give a few examples in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39403310 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39403310
- kjellsbells 3y ago
  s/liberals//g Has happened over and over again that the Western political class prioritizes alignment with some entity on some short term goal over checking that the entity shares any other sentiments. And then being all surprised-pikachu when they dont. US funding mujahideen against the Soviets. Israel funding Hamas to keep the PA weak. Europe lauding Aung Sang Suu Kyi in Myanmar etc. Any time you see a puff piece in mainstream Western media about some leader abroad that "we find we can work with" or has similar cheese, beware.
  - lr1970 3y ago
    You can add Juan Guido in Venezuela (sorry if misspelled his name)
- bonzini 3y ago
  It was always pretty clear that he wasn't a saint. At some point Amnesty International felt compelled to clarify that their sympathy for Navalny began and ended with him being poisoned and imprisoned.
- roenxi 3y ago
  > there's been a tendency for Western liberals to concentrate on Putin, oppose him, and therefore idealize his opponents Seems to depend on whether someone believes Russia's security interests have some level of legitimacy. If the war is unfounded then it is an act of madness and the motivation is probably attributable to a single charismatic individual (and Putin must be that person). The view is part of the "Russia's unprovoked attack on Ukraine!" narrative. If Russian has legitimate security interests in the region then it doesn't matter so much who the president is and Putin's role in events is important but it is likely others would have made the same choice.
SEJeff 3y ago
Navalny has always been a supporter of a concept referred to as "Russkiy Mir"[1] and has spoke at length about it. It is a weird ethno religious philosophy which shows the bounds of the russian country extend far past the borders of teh russian federation. The closest I can easily describe it is as a weird western version of jihad where they want to assume all other cultures and erase them in favor of expansion of their own via multiple methods. In 2007, in a Russian "Gun Rights" video, Navalny compared the Chechen muslims to "cockroaches and flies" and said he wanted to exterminate them. A picture of a Chechen muslim appears on the screen and he shoots it with a pistol. In another [2] video it featured Navalny dressed as a dentist, presenting a slightly confusing parable that likened interethnic conflict in Russia to cavities and argued that fascism can be prevented only by deporting migrants from Russia. Navalny closed his monologue with “We have a right to be [ethnic] Russians in Russia. And we will defend this right.” This is an allegory to killing all non-ethnic Russians. In 2008 when Russia invaded the country of Georgia. He said[3]: Of course, there is a big desire to fire a cruise missile at the General Staff of the [derogative name for Georgians], but they are just waiting for this. Years later, he apologized for the ethnic slur denoting Georgian people, but never for his support of the Russian war on Georgia. In an interview with Echo of Moscow radio station in October 2014, Navalny admitted that the peninsula had been seized through “outrageous violations of all international norms”, and yet asserted that it would “remain part of Russia” and would “never become part of Ukraine in the foreseeable future”. His statement was not simply an assessment of the developments around Crimea. When pressed on whether he would return Crimea to Ukraine were he to become Russia’s president, Navalny wrapped his “No” in an odd question: “What? Is Crimea a sandwich or something that you can take and give back?” His position on Crimea was basically, "finders keepers." Also in 2014, here[4] he is using one of the worst ethnic slurs for Ukrainians making fun of them. In 2016, Navalny said that he intended to hold a "normal" referendum in Russian-occupied Crimea if he won the Russian presidential election. Note that Russia has forcibly killed or deported many/most ethnic Tatar peoples and native Ukrainians from Crimea. They've allowed Russian people to come occupy it and settle the lands, so by definition, any referendum would be with invaders on invaded territory. It would be a sham. In 2023, he offered a 15 point "manifesto"[5] where he changed tac quite a bit, but this was after some prominent navalnyists were pissing off western journalists with their staunch anti-ukraine message, all in line with Russkiy Mir. I can go on and on and on, but his support of violence and cleansing the world of non-russians goes back a long time. I just spent a few minutes to find these but if you dig in you can find the same and more. [1] https://dgap.org/en/events/russkiy-mir-russian-world https://dgap.org/en/events/russkiy-mir-russian-world [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICoc2VmGdfw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICoc2VmGdfw [3] https://navalny.livejournal.com/274456.html https://navalny.livejournal.com/274456.html [4] https://twitter.com/navalny/status/505215151961014272 https://twitter.com/navalny/status/505215151961014272 [5] https://twitter.com/navalny/status/1627632098608644099 https://twitter.com/navalny/status/1627632098608644099
breather 3y ago
This all may be true, but he still has a track record as an expansionist, as nationalist, as islamophobic, and as ethno-nationalist. He may not have presented much of a change in Russia's behavior the way the western press has implied he might have.

screenoridesaga 3y ago

[flagged]

saiya-jin 3y ago

Care to provide some links apart from 'they said it on fox news'? Its exactly the type of narrative putin would like to push to marginalize another high profile murder, and we have seen he can be an expert with playing foreign powers and media against each other

SEJeff 3y ago
See my followup here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39403310 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39403310

holoduke 3y ago

[flagged]

attentive 3y ago
"some language differences", my god.
- SEJeff 3y ago
  To him this is likely "a mild disagreement" as ukrainian civilians are being actively targeted by Russian missiles. Quite a tone deaf and horrible point of view.
  - holoduke 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - midasz 3y ago
      The ICC has arrest warrants out for Putin for his war crimes. I really can't believe you're wilfully this ignorant to say there has been no civilian targetting. How are cluster bombs on cities not pure indiscriminate murder?
      - holoduke 3y ago
        Where are russian cluster bombs on cities happened? I thought the US provided Ukraine with cluster and gave them green light to start.
        sergeykish 3y ago
        Search video. For example, Kharkiv was targeted by cluster ammunition, that's norm. Moscow terrors to drive out disloyal population, to hinder economy, to distract defenses from the front. "Poland forced Germany to attack" (1939) by Putin, Moscow propaganda supports genocide. Atrocities in Bucha, Izum is result. Relatives? They speak nothing or support "liberation" by occupants.

surfingdino 3y ago

Some people in the West really tried to make him the face of opposition in Russia, but he was unpalatable to Eastern Europe, which no longer is a part of the world that doesn't count. The West, Western Europe in particular has to realign its diplomatic strategy and stop ignoring countries located between Moscow and Berlin.

MUhito 3y ago

[dead]