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How do you propose the west avoids conflict with Russia and China? Is there any examples in history of appeasement leading to less bloodshed?

lordfrito 3y ago
I'm not sure we can avoid conflict now, I think we're past the point where that was possible (last 10-15 years were critical). I think both Russia and China understand that, and are planning accordingly. I'm proposing we wake up and start doing the same, planning and drawing "do not cross" lines in the sand to hopefully limit the total/final scope of the conflict. Yes this will force an earlier confrontation -- but WWII would have been a lot less bloody if Europe had stood up to Hitler earlier -- problem was everyone thought that appeasing him would make things better. It's clear both Russia and China can't be appeased at this point. Both need to be checked.
- hackinthebochs 3y ago
  >planning and drawing "do not cross" lines in the sand to hopefully limit the total/final scope of the conflict. The irony here is unreal. Yes, drawing red lines is a good way to avoid runaway escalation, if only world powers are willing to honor them.
- eastbound 3y ago
  No, Europe’s problem was that we were pacifists. France still prides itself for inventing the Congés Payés (paid leave) in 1936 while the Germans were building their military might. The price in lieu of our “acquis sociaux” was getting occupied, point blank. Europe still prides itself for having female ministers of defense in every major country (who remembers them? We give the job to women when we just need to maintain things; Men traditionally seize the head-of-war position by force when someone wants to get things done, the position of Minister of Defense is figurative and should not exist) and feminist warfare (=give priority to women in war). Europe also prides itself for its glorious occupation by … ahem… by the thing I’m not allowed to talk about because we’re under occupation. Our kids get smashed at school, that’s for sure, under the eye if teachers who forbid them from responding with force. If I were Russia, I’d pay all the leaflets and papers on which the “Vivrensemble with enemey people” posters are printed. We’re vegans, we’re trans, we’re using non-violent communication, we’re in discord on our soil, we destroy every trait of masculinity during education: We’re incapable of war, and we’re incapable of being a threat to Russia. For as long as I’ve been hearing Macron’s minister say we’re “doing a total economic war” with Russia (literal words), for as long as I hear the West is winning and Russia is on its knees, I see that every battle is one step closer inside Europe. We’re losing.
  - derpitron 3y ago
    > Europe also prides itself for its glorious occupation by … ahem… by the thing I’m not allowed to talk about because we’re under occupation. > We’re vegans, we’re trans, we’re using non-violent communication, we’re in discord on our soil, we destroy every trait of masculinity during education Remind me what exactly do these have to do with Russian aggression again?
  - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
    > We’re vegans, we’re trans, we’re using non-violent communication, we’re in discord on our soil, we destroy every trait of masculinity during education: We’re incapable of war, and we’re incapable of being a threat to Russia. Going by your post, French men are so masculine that their masculinity feels threatened by pretty much everything.
funcDropShadow 3y ago
GP wasn't talking about appeasement. The west has to make sure, that it is not a winning option to attack it.
neom 3y ago
Fan fiction, but: Civil wars might do it, the Russians need to overthrow Putin, Xi in China, and we need to elect peace hawks in places that have democracy. People would have to really really really really not want a word war. On the history part, I have no clue, but I do know that today the citizenry is more connected and able to strategize for ourselfs than at any point in history before.
- wombat-man 3y ago
  Putin's old, but he isn't that old. Plus I assume there are similar people waiting in the wings to takeover. Idk how to fix the situation but it would make me nervous for them to have a civil war in a nuclear power. Xi might go, but that party isn't going anywhere.
  - neom 3y ago
    It's a damn shame everything going on, really gets me down sometimes. My mum said the other day one of the reasons my folks had us when they did was the Cold War was ending(Gorbachev came in), there would never be war in Europe again, and the world was happy and healthy for the future.
    - eric_cc 3y ago
      > there would never be war in Europe again Lol
  - m0llusk 3y ago
    > Xi might go, but that party isn't going anywhere. Geographically probably not, but politically the Chinese Communist party already covers a very broad spectrum with Xi and others currently at the top being the most insular, paranoid, and economically impractical of all the various factions. A "fix" to the situation is unlikely, but changes that yield improvements are all but inevitable at this point.
    - neom 3y ago
      This is interesting to me, I naively think of the CCP as being highly unified as they paint such a great picture of that, I always thought there would be some decenters but for the most part complete unification. I should probably learn more about this and would gladly accept any resources on digging into the modern CCP more.
mschuster91 3y ago
> How do you propose the west avoids conflict with Russia and China? There's a lot of things the West can do without throwing nukes at the problem: - arming ourselves and our allies (especially Taiwan) to the teeth - supporting exiled and in-country opposition - intervening against hostile operations (such as "police stations") on our own soil - strengthen links with "global south" countries to minimize Chinese/Russian influence on them, support local rebels against regimes that have already fallen towards Russia/China.
- justsomehnguy 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    Of course I would. We're at least a bunch of democracies, neither Russia nor China are. I believe that we should have done much more, and much earlier, to foster democracies and to stop dictatorships and bullies. Instead, we let them fester (unfortunately, even amongst our own like Hungary and Turkey), and now the cancer has grown so massive that it will be very hard to kill it.
- krmboya 3y ago
  Of course, pouring more dollars to forment more war and suffering by non-americans while the Americans are fully sheltered. These games played by global powers hurt a lot of the smaller countries. Lot's of Ukrainian civilians have needlessly lost their lives
DyslexicAtheist 3y ago
it is only possible to reduce not to avoid bloodshed. Russia does not honor the rules of law so we should not negotiate with them in good faith. They are a terrorist state. UN Charter Budapest Memorandum INF Treaty Minsk 2 / Minsk 1 ... The only solution are preemptive strikes against Russian interests.
- logicchains 3y ago
  By rules of law you mean international law? By that logic we should also commit preemptive strikes against Israel to prevent it committing what is recognised by the internal community as genocide.
  - myth_drannon 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - Gibbon1 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - CyberDildonics 3y ago
        Or maybe it is because there have been 29,000 deaths and all aid has been cut off along with cement poured in their plumbing so they have no fresh water. https://time.com/6696507/palestinian-death-toll-gaza-israel-hamas/ https://time.com/6696507/palestinian-death-toll-gaza-israel-... 1 in 100 people have been killed in gaza since october 7th. Entire neighborhoods have been leveled by bombs and bulldozed. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/07/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-maps.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/07/world/middlee...
      - khokhol 3y ago
        This kind of thinking is plainly delusional, and likely harmful to Israel in the long run.
    - 3y ago
nonethewiser 3y ago
> Is there any examples in history of appeasement leading to less bloodshed? Generally you avoid conflict by being scary, not agreeable.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > Generally you avoid conflict by being scary, not agreeable. As a rule of life, that's a pretty bad idea. I don't avoid conflict with family, friends, neighbors, coworkers by being scary. In international relations, it's by far more effective to be agreeable. Alliances are far more stable than competitive balance between 'scary' countries. Look at the EU; look at Korea - which relationships are more stable, the scary or the agreeable ones? Look at Israel, where by far the most stable relationships are the agreeable ones with Egypt, Jordan, and the US, even now. Look at the US and Canada. The list goes on forever.
  - saiya-jin 3y ago
    Your argument falls apart since you deal with mobsters who don't respect any contract if it doesn't suit them. Remember pinky promises that they won't invade Ukraine just before they did it? If you keep stepping back to bullies, soon you are standing with ocean behind your back. And if you don't think russians would love ruling as much Europe as they can grab, you haven't been listening to them a single bit for past 2 decades, their ego is gigantic. We've been there for 40 years not so long ago, but maybe you weren't born yet to recall these times. Also, this is how russia was defeated - mix of US being simply too strong and one sane russian leader who realized how bad this is (Gorbachev, he is deeply hated by all russian elites who now try to bring good ol' times back). What you propose is a position of weakness, that leaders of russia see as a sign of weakness and will act accordingly. I just wish all these naive commenters would spend a decade living in russia to understand what we're actually dealing with and what kind of conflict is inevitably coming to the western Europe.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      You confuse 'agreeable' - admittedly an ambiguous term - with 'walkover'. You can negotiate both with strength and without being a monster yourself.

lordfrito 3y ago

I'm not sure we can avoid conflict now, I think we're past the point where that was possible (last 10-15 years were critical). I think both Russia and China understand that, and are planning accordingly. I'm proposing we wake up and start doing the same, planning and drawing "do not cross" lines in the sand to hopefully limit the total/final scope of the conflict. Yes this will force an earlier confrontation -- but WWII would have been a lot less bloody if Europe had stood up to Hitler earlier -- problem was everyone thought that appeasing him would make things better. It's clear both Russia and China can't be appeased at this point. Both need to be checked.

hackinthebochs 3y ago
>planning and drawing "do not cross" lines in the sand to hopefully limit the total/final scope of the conflict. The irony here is unreal. Yes, drawing red lines is a good way to avoid runaway escalation, if only world powers are willing to honor them.
eastbound 3y ago
No, Europe’s problem was that we were pacifists. France still prides itself for inventing the Congés Payés (paid leave) in 1936 while the Germans were building their military might. The price in lieu of our “acquis sociaux” was getting occupied, point blank. Europe still prides itself for having female ministers of defense in every major country (who remembers them? We give the job to women when we just need to maintain things; Men traditionally seize the head-of-war position by force when someone wants to get things done, the position of Minister of Defense is figurative and should not exist) and feminist warfare (=give priority to women in war). Europe also prides itself for its glorious occupation by … ahem… by the thing I’m not allowed to talk about because we’re under occupation. Our kids get smashed at school, that’s for sure, under the eye if teachers who forbid them from responding with force. If I were Russia, I’d pay all the leaflets and papers on which the “Vivrensemble with enemey people” posters are printed. We’re vegans, we’re trans, we’re using non-violent communication, we’re in discord on our soil, we destroy every trait of masculinity during education: We’re incapable of war, and we’re incapable of being a threat to Russia. For as long as I’ve been hearing Macron’s minister say we’re “doing a total economic war” with Russia (literal words), for as long as I hear the West is winning and Russia is on its knees, I see that every battle is one step closer inside Europe. We’re losing.
- derpitron 3y ago
  > Europe also prides itself for its glorious occupation by … ahem… by the thing I’m not allowed to talk about because we’re under occupation. > We’re vegans, we’re trans, we’re using non-violent communication, we’re in discord on our soil, we destroy every trait of masculinity during education Remind me what exactly do these have to do with Russian aggression again?
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
  > We’re vegans, we’re trans, we’re using non-violent communication, we’re in discord on our soil, we destroy every trait of masculinity during education: We’re incapable of war, and we’re incapable of being a threat to Russia. Going by your post, French men are so masculine that their masculinity feels threatened by pretty much everything.

funcDropShadow 3y ago

GP wasn't talking about appeasement. The west has to make sure, that it is not a winning option to attack it.

neom 3y ago

Fan fiction, but: Civil wars might do it, the Russians need to overthrow Putin, Xi in China, and we need to elect peace hawks in places that have democracy. People would have to really really really really not want a word war. On the history part, I have no clue, but I do know that today the citizenry is more connected and able to strategize for ourselfs than at any point in history before.

wombat-man 3y ago
Putin's old, but he isn't that old. Plus I assume there are similar people waiting in the wings to takeover. Idk how to fix the situation but it would make me nervous for them to have a civil war in a nuclear power. Xi might go, but that party isn't going anywhere.
- neom 3y ago
  It's a damn shame everything going on, really gets me down sometimes. My mum said the other day one of the reasons my folks had us when they did was the Cold War was ending(Gorbachev came in), there would never be war in Europe again, and the world was happy and healthy for the future.
  - eric_cc 3y ago
    > there would never be war in Europe again Lol
- m0llusk 3y ago
  > Xi might go, but that party isn't going anywhere. Geographically probably not, but politically the Chinese Communist party already covers a very broad spectrum with Xi and others currently at the top being the most insular, paranoid, and economically impractical of all the various factions. A "fix" to the situation is unlikely, but changes that yield improvements are all but inevitable at this point.
  - neom 3y ago
    This is interesting to me, I naively think of the CCP as being highly unified as they paint such a great picture of that, I always thought there would be some decenters but for the most part complete unification. I should probably learn more about this and would gladly accept any resources on digging into the modern CCP more.

mschuster91 3y ago

> How do you propose the west avoids conflict with Russia and China? There's a lot of things the West can do without throwing nukes at the problem: - arming ourselves and our allies (especially Taiwan) to the teeth - supporting exiled and in-country opposition - intervening against hostile operations (such as "police stations") on our own soil - strengthen links with "global south" countries to minimize Chinese/Russian influence on them, support local rebels against regimes that have already fallen towards Russia/China.

justsomehnguy 3y ago
[flagged]
- mschuster91 3y ago
  Of course I would. We're at least a bunch of democracies, neither Russia nor China are. I believe that we should have done much more, and much earlier, to foster democracies and to stop dictatorships and bullies. Instead, we let them fester (unfortunately, even amongst our own like Hungary and Turkey), and now the cancer has grown so massive that it will be very hard to kill it.
krmboya 3y ago
Of course, pouring more dollars to forment more war and suffering by non-americans while the Americans are fully sheltered. These games played by global powers hurt a lot of the smaller countries. Lot's of Ukrainian civilians have needlessly lost their lives

DyslexicAtheist 3y ago

it is only possible to reduce not to avoid bloodshed. Russia does not honor the rules of law so we should not negotiate with them in good faith. They are a terrorist state. UN Charter Budapest Memorandum INF Treaty Minsk 2 / Minsk 1 ... The only solution are preemptive strikes against Russian interests.

logicchains 3y ago
By rules of law you mean international law? By that logic we should also commit preemptive strikes against Israel to prevent it committing what is recognised by the internal community as genocide.
- myth_drannon 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Gibbon1 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - CyberDildonics 3y ago
      Or maybe it is because there have been 29,000 deaths and all aid has been cut off along with cement poured in their plumbing so they have no fresh water. https://time.com/6696507/palestinian-death-toll-gaza-israel-hamas/ https://time.com/6696507/palestinian-death-toll-gaza-israel-... 1 in 100 people have been killed in gaza since october 7th. Entire neighborhoods have been leveled by bombs and bulldozed. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/07/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-maps.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/07/world/middlee...
    - khokhol 3y ago
      This kind of thinking is plainly delusional, and likely harmful to Israel in the long run.
  - 3y ago

nonethewiser 3y ago

> Is there any examples in history of appeasement leading to less bloodshed? Generally you avoid conflict by being scary, not agreeable.

wolverine876 3y ago
> Generally you avoid conflict by being scary, not agreeable. As a rule of life, that's a pretty bad idea. I don't avoid conflict with family, friends, neighbors, coworkers by being scary. In international relations, it's by far more effective to be agreeable. Alliances are far more stable than competitive balance between 'scary' countries. Look at the EU; look at Korea - which relationships are more stable, the scary or the agreeable ones? Look at Israel, where by far the most stable relationships are the agreeable ones with Egypt, Jordan, and the US, even now. Look at the US and Canada. The list goes on forever.
- saiya-jin 3y ago
  Your argument falls apart since you deal with mobsters who don't respect any contract if it doesn't suit them. Remember pinky promises that they won't invade Ukraine just before they did it? If you keep stepping back to bullies, soon you are standing with ocean behind your back. And if you don't think russians would love ruling as much Europe as they can grab, you haven't been listening to them a single bit for past 2 decades, their ego is gigantic. We've been there for 40 years not so long ago, but maybe you weren't born yet to recall these times. Also, this is how russia was defeated - mix of US being simply too strong and one sane russian leader who realized how bad this is (Gorbachev, he is deeply hated by all russian elites who now try to bring good ol' times back). What you propose is a position of weakness, that leaders of russia see as a sign of weakness and will act accordingly. I just wish all these naive commenters would spend a decade living in russia to understand what we're actually dealing with and what kind of conflict is inevitably coming to the western Europe.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    You confuse 'agreeable' - admittedly an ambiguous term - with 'walkover'. You can negotiate both with strength and without being a monster yourself.