5 ms·

We need some modern games like Lemmings or the "classic" 2D Worms. HOW did they do that pixel-perfect terrain destruction anyway?

snerbles 3y ago
> We still don't have any modern games like Lemmings or the "classic" 2D Worms.. or do we? Noita comes to mind. Also includes some pretty wild fluid dynamics. > HOW did they do that pixel-perfect terrain destruction anyway?? Usually the terrain is a bitmap, and various effects paint/erase it.
cwillu 3y ago
The video framebuffer isn't rendered from the game state, it is the game state.
- chongli 3y ago
  That may have been the case for the original Lemmings — where the background is black so you can collision test directly against black pixels — but newer games have background textures. If you want to have complex backgrounds and terrain textures with pixel-perfect collisions and terrain modification then you’ll likely want to keep separate buffers for foreground and background. Then your game engine would operate on a bitmask for collision and destruction of terrain, and you’d construct the framebuffer by blitting [1] the foreground and background using the mask to select between them. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitter
  - vardump 3y ago
    For example Amiga and most 16-bit consoles could just have two (or more) playfields (like layers or screen size sprites) superimposed on each other. For the game code those pixels would still be "black", well, transparent, even with background graphics showing through. No blitting required, playfields were drawn by the display hardware at scanout.
RGamma 3y ago
eets (2006) is similar.
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>We still don't have any modern games like Lemmings or the "classic" 2D Worms That's like complaining we haven't made a modern Elvis Presley or Michael Jackson or that we haven't remade The Godfather. If the originals are so simple, accessible, and so good, what more could you bring to the table with a new modern version to guarantee a big sales success to offset the risk and cost of starting such and endeavor when gamers can just play the existing originals. Not everything needs a reboot/remake, especially if perfection has already been achieved.
- selcuka 3y ago
  > If the originals are so good and can be played today on modern systems, what more could you bring to the table with modern versions to guarantee a big success. That's a weird deduction. Everything can be improved upon. Why do we have loads of modern games like Doom, for example? It was good too, and can be played today on modern systems.
  - autoexec 3y ago
    I'm still waiting for FMV games to come back into fashion. They were a neat blend of theater and adventure games (which is another genre that doesn't get enough love)
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Apples to oranges. Doom is a different genre. Some genres, like Worms, just peak much sooner than others, like Doom, and don't benefit from newer graphics or technological improvements. Just like UX design, at some point you peak, and any more changes you try to add for the sake of improvements, just end up making the product worse. Look at current commercial operating systems or at Reddit. They also made a 3D Worms game a while back and it was a massive flop. Often, simpler is better. Sure, everything can always be improved an you might hypothetically be able to build an even better Worms game than the original, but since the bar is already so high, you have very little chance of topping it and all the risks of failure.
  - samatman 3y ago
xtracto 3y ago
I remember enjoying a later version of lemmings called lemmings tower or something similar. It was pretty cool.
kibwen 3y ago
While I wouldn't quite call Liero "modern", dating from 1998, the modern part is that you can play it multiplayer in your browser instantly: https://www.webliero.com/ https://www.webliero.com/ There's also King Arthur's Gold, which is a free multiplayer game that I'm sure only has like ten players online these days but is an absolute hoot regardless: https://store.steampowered.com/app/219830/King_Arthurs_Gold/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/219830/King_Arthurs_Gold/
- chongli 3y ago
  King Arthur's Gold looks familiar! Must be an homage to the hidden gem King Arthur's World [1] for the SNES. I played the heck out of that game. Fantastic music and clearly an interesting take on the Lemmings genre! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Arthur%27s_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Arthur%27s_World
Eric_WVGG 3y ago
The humor is occasionally (often) crude, but Zombie Night Terror is a fantastic modern Lemmings-style game. You run a zombie invasion, the zombies have attributes not unlike the ones from Left 4 Dead, but the gameplay is pure Lemmings. https://www.zombienightterror.com https://www.zombienightterror.com (Incidentally the best game I've ever played on an iPad.)
prmoustache 3y ago
> We need some modern games like Lemmings or the "classic" 2D Worms. Yes we have. https://hedgewars.org/ https://hedgewars.org/
joveian 3y ago
Not the pixel art style that you seem to mean but there is a recent lemmings 3D style game called Tin Harts. I haven't played it yet but it looks interesting. https://www.gog.com/en/game/tin_hearts https://www.gog.com/en/game/tin_hearts Also, it is voxels rather than hand drawn pixel art but I thought Urbek did a great job at feeling like that era of game. It is as much a puzzle game as a builder (there are a number of levels of upgrade that require other buildings within a certain distance). https://www.gog.com/en/game/urbek_city_builder https://www.gog.com/en/game/urbek_city_builder

snerbles 3y ago

> We still don't have any modern games like Lemmings or the "classic" 2D Worms.. or do we? Noita comes to mind. Also includes some pretty wild fluid dynamics. > HOW did they do that pixel-perfect terrain destruction anyway?? Usually the terrain is a bitmap, and various effects paint/erase it.

cwillu 3y ago

The video framebuffer isn't rendered from the game state, it is the game state.

chongli 3y ago
That may have been the case for the original Lemmings — where the background is black so you can collision test directly against black pixels — but newer games have background textures. If you want to have complex backgrounds and terrain textures with pixel-perfect collisions and terrain modification then you’ll likely want to keep separate buffers for foreground and background. Then your game engine would operate on a bitmask for collision and destruction of terrain, and you’d construct the framebuffer by blitting [1] the foreground and background using the mask to select between them. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitter
- vardump 3y ago
  For example Amiga and most 16-bit consoles could just have two (or more) playfields (like layers or screen size sprites) superimposed on each other. For the game code those pixels would still be "black", well, transparent, even with background graphics showing through. No blitting required, playfields were drawn by the display hardware at scanout.

RGamma 3y ago

eets (2006) is similar.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

>We still don't have any modern games like Lemmings or the "classic" 2D Worms That's like complaining we haven't made a modern Elvis Presley or Michael Jackson or that we haven't remade The Godfather. If the originals are so simple, accessible, and so good, what more could you bring to the table with a new modern version to guarantee a big sales success to offset the risk and cost of starting such and endeavor when gamers can just play the existing originals. Not everything needs a reboot/remake, especially if perfection has already been achieved.

selcuka 3y ago
> If the originals are so good and can be played today on modern systems, what more could you bring to the table with modern versions to guarantee a big success. That's a weird deduction. Everything can be improved upon. Why do we have loads of modern games like Doom, for example? It was good too, and can be played today on modern systems.
- autoexec 3y ago
  I'm still waiting for FMV games to come back into fashion. They were a neat blend of theater and adventure games (which is another genre that doesn't get enough love)
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Apples to oranges. Doom is a different genre. Some genres, like Worms, just peak much sooner than others, like Doom, and don't benefit from newer graphics or technological improvements. Just like UX design, at some point you peak, and any more changes you try to add for the sake of improvements, just end up making the product worse. Look at current commercial operating systems or at Reddit. They also made a 3D Worms game a while back and it was a massive flop. Often, simpler is better. Sure, everything can always be improved an you might hypothetically be able to build an even better Worms game than the original, but since the bar is already so high, you have very little chance of topping it and all the risks of failure.
- samatman 3y ago

xtracto 3y ago

I remember enjoying a later version of lemmings called lemmings tower or something similar. It was pretty cool.

kibwen 3y ago

While I wouldn't quite call Liero "modern", dating from 1998, the modern part is that you can play it multiplayer in your browser instantly: https://www.webliero.com/ https://www.webliero.com/ There's also King Arthur's Gold, which is a free multiplayer game that I'm sure only has like ten players online these days but is an absolute hoot regardless: https://store.steampowered.com/app/219830/King_Arthurs_Gold/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/219830/King_Arthurs_Gold/

chongli 3y ago
King Arthur's Gold looks familiar! Must be an homage to the hidden gem King Arthur's World [1] for the SNES. I played the heck out of that game. Fantastic music and clearly an interesting take on the Lemmings genre! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Arthur%27s_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Arthur%27s_World

Eric_WVGG 3y ago

The humor is occasionally (often) crude, but Zombie Night Terror is a fantastic modern Lemmings-style game. You run a zombie invasion, the zombies have attributes not unlike the ones from Left 4 Dead, but the gameplay is pure Lemmings. https://www.zombienightterror.com https://www.zombienightterror.com (Incidentally the best game I've ever played on an iPad.)

prmoustache 3y ago

> We need some modern games like Lemmings or the "classic" 2D Worms. Yes we have. https://hedgewars.org/ https://hedgewars.org/

joveian 3y ago

Not the pixel art style that you seem to mean but there is a recent lemmings 3D style game called Tin Harts. I haven't played it yet but it looks interesting. https://www.gog.com/en/game/tin_hearts https://www.gog.com/en/game/tin_hearts Also, it is voxels rather than hand drawn pixel art but I thought Urbek did a great job at feeling like that era of game. It is as much a puzzle game as a builder (there are a number of levels of upgrade that require other buildings within a certain distance). https://www.gog.com/en/game/urbek_city_builder https://www.gog.com/en/game/urbek_city_builder