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>At about 12:30 p.m., my phone buzzed. The caller ID said it was Amazon. I answered. This is a terrible story and I feel for the person affected. The lesson h

>At about 12:30 p.m., my phone buzzed. The caller ID said it was Amazon. I answered. This is a terrible story and I feel for the person affected. The lesson here is that there's no reason at al to answer any inbound phone call if it's not a personal contact. There are only two reasons someone you don't know may be calling you: - to sell you something - to scam you If it appears important like your bank or a government agency then call them back and do not answer. There is no upside and a potentially disastrous downside for trusting an inbound request of any kind.

jollyllama 3y ago
There are absolutely reasons to answer inbound calls. Job seekers will hear from recruiters they haven't heard from yet and heaven help you if you miss a call from a government agency because you'll be waiting on hold for a long time when you call them back. Like anything, there are tradeoffs.
- brianwawok 3y ago
  Recruiters can email or leave voicemail Government always sends letters, can’t think of a time the IRS has ever called me. But they sure send me a lot of letters.
  - jollyllama 3y ago
    Unemployment agencies can call to ask questions about your application and it'll go quicker if you pick up. Often it's important for people to get the unemployment money quickly.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- hn8305823 3y ago
  Another example exception: Yesterday I ordered an Uber to go from a hotel to the Airport. Immediately after connecting with a driver I get an inbound call from another state. I'm the type that never answers inbound calls unless it's in my contact list and even then I might not answer and let them leave a VM or follow up with a text. But I made an exception in this case due to the timing and my desire not to miss my flight. It was the Uber driver clarifying the pick-up spot.
  - ryandrake 3y ago
    > But I made an exception in this case due to the timing and my desire not to miss my flight. It was the Uber driver clarifying the pick-up spot. This points to failed process on Uber's part. There is no reason an Uber driver should need to call their customer from their personal phone. The pick-up spot is prominently displayed on both the driver's and rider's apps. You can't miss it. Same for delivery drivers. If the package requires an in-person signature, there should be a process for what to do if the customer is not available that does not involve the delivery driver calling from a personal phone.
    - graeme 3y ago
      Would you believe that passengers frequently do not appear at pick up spots? Or that some pickup spots in some geographies in crodwed cities are unclear? Some drivers call proactively to avoid issues. I’ve had multiple calls from Uber drivers.
- DontSignAnytng 3y ago
  Lol what? What kind of bizzaro world is this?
paultopia 3y ago
But also, how have we not figured out how to stop caller ID spoofing yet? What the fuck?
- pbhjpbhj 3y ago
  It's not a technical problem, it's a market capitalism problem. Legislate that callers receiving a call without a valid caller ID will be allowed at least one month of bill payments returned and they'd make damn sure that they never routed calls without a caller ID. "Valid" would have to encompass things like 'foreign country of origin', I imagine. So, a call from a scam call center, that the local company allows to be routed, might only have "City, Country". But that would be enough to auto-block all non-domestic calls. Your home country's supplier can decide whether to route calls from a foreign peer, but I imagine that not being able to charge customers would be sufficient impetus? A company routing more than X% of non-IDed calls could be subject to penalties against it's directors (a fine equal to a years income, and/or 5% of all assets, would probably be enough), just to sweeten things. Why aren't we more militant with companies that enable antisocial/scam activities?
  - kbolino 3y ago
    Traditional regulatory authority has been moderately effective at getting changes made already, but being too aggressive risks network fragmentation. Even the USA is just one participant in the NANP, never mind the global telephony network. We also don't live in the days of AT&T having a monopoly anymore. Any change requires cooperation between different vendors, and ensuring a smooth rollout means allowing for a slow rollout. This is the telephone system after all, not some startup's barely-used product. Plus the government has multiple arms and some of them don't want the changes to be made or not too quickly (surveillance, stings, etc.).
  - friend_and_foe 3y ago
    No, it's a technical problem. These weaknesses exist because legacy systems had them and the entire telephony network is nothing but backwards compatibility and technical debt.
M4v3R 3y ago
There are many other valid reasons to receive a call from an unknown number: - someone from your immediate family lost their phone (or it ran out of battery) and they're calling you from a borrowed phone - someone close to you had an accident and police / hospital is calling you about it - a call from school about your kids - someone you know changed their number - delivery person has a package for you and wants to confirm you're home - you bought something online but they ran out of stock and want to offer you a replacement - etc.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- from-nibly 3y ago
  Those people can leave a message.
  - fallinghawks 3y ago
    I think answering unknown numbers in real time is situational. I normally don't answer any of them; as you said, if it's important, they'll leave a message. But when I bought a refrigerator I knew delivery people would be calling, so I answered unknown calls until it was done.
  - gnicholas 3y ago
    The ability to view a transcript of the message in real-time is a great new feature of iOS 17. I use it all the time — and it's pretty much always junk.
  - nanliu 3y ago
    Wait til AI voice spoofing is part of the scammers arsenal.
- ghaff 3y ago
  I don't always answer calls from random weird area codes. But I'm also not willing to effectively throw out my phone as a way to reach me because I get the odd junk call.
maCDzP 3y ago
I got a call in the middle of the night where an unknown woman kept asking me who i was. I thought it was a scam so I was very vague. The woman then went on to tell me my mom had had a stroke. Unfortunately she was telling the truth. So yeah, sometimes it's good to answer unknown callers.
- graeme 3y ago
  Indeed. Hospitals and medical providers almost always call from unknown numbers, and if they leave a message the person leaving it may not be reachable easily for callback.
ruddct 3y ago
Another one: > He told me to go to the FTC home page and look up the main phone number. “Now hang up the phone, and I will call you from that number right now.” I did as he said. The FTC number flashed on my screen, and I picked up. “How do I know you’re not just spoofing this?” I asked. > “It’s a government number,” he said, almost indignant. “It cannot be spoofed.” Completely insane that we continue to allow caller ID and number spoofing, it's so effective for these fraud scenarios.
- kr0bat 3y ago
  I consider myself technically inclined, yet up until today I didn't realize numbers COULD be spoofed One day a few months ago I woke up to a missed call from a verified number. I had been in a car crash the night before, and I was worried I missed a call from the driver's insurance company. I called them back, and I was told that I was talking to a civil engineering firm; the receptionist was polite, but she sounded even more confused than I was. I had googled the number while I was on the phone, and yup, it belonged to a civie firm. At the time I just assumed some engineer fat fingered my number by mistake, but I guess I missed a call from "Amazon" or "your insurance company" or some other nonsense. Funnily enough an insurance scam might have gotten me in the state I was in.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    And, in fact, there are good reasons to spoof numbers. For example, a company may want all/many numbers to look like they come from a company's central exchange as opposed to an individual person's desk.
    - lostmsu 3y ago
      That can be achieved through proxying.
- prepend 3y ago
  Completely insane that someone believes this.
mandeepj 3y ago
> The lesson here is that there's no reason at al to answer any inbound phone call if it's not a personal contact. I was thinking about that the other day. I think 'incoming calls' is an idea that got badly implemented, or I'd even call it one of the worst features ever implemented. Besides my friends and family (I normally text chat with them during day hours and calls after work), why would anyone unsolicitedly call me? I might be in a meeting or deep work; did that never occur to you? So, either I miss those calls or do not pick up. Some scammers are just dumb. One of them called me on a weekend and said - "This is border police". DumbF*k, there's no border police.
trimethylpurine 3y ago
Recently I contested a fraudulent charge on a credit card. When they called me for information about the incident they couldn't offer any way for me to verify that they were from the bank they claimed to be from. No published number. Can't verify my information until they hear me give it. Can't call them back because they have an internal extension, it would go to the regular fraud number which starts the whole process over. My choice was either to cooperate or ignore them and pay the bill. It was in fact the real bank... Sometimes you are forced to risk it.
- ParetoOptimal 3y ago
  The risk for not paying seems lower for most cases I can personally think of.
  - trimethylpurine 3y ago
    This was a $6k transaction. Depends on your lot in life, you're right. But, I think the takeaway is that it takes both you and the bank to prevent fraud. And only one of those is in your control.
- BehindBlueEyes 3y ago
  I wouldn’t mind starting the whole process over if that was the cost of calling them back vs. Risking a scam on top of the 6000 transaction. That said banks can be pretty bad at avoiding scam-like messaging and promoting bad habbits.
  - trimethylpurine 3y ago
    Ah, I meant that there is no way to reach a second tier fraud handler on any published number. If you start over, you'll just repeat the escalation process, and end up with another unverifiable caller asking you to verify information.
paul7986 3y ago
Exactly do not pick up any call unless it's in your contacts already let all others go to voicemail to screen them. Even those voicemails be weary of especially if it's something that sounds scary even a family members voice crying for help..call their phone number directly to see if they are ok (it's not an AI voice). If you do call the unknown number which is possibly using a fake voice of one of your loved ones or friends ask them personal questions and or shared experiences between you and them..the scammers haven't downloaded our memories (not yet at least). Personally I ignore almost unknown calls and voicemails and do not do any online shopping. Those few that I respond back to I'll say I can't verify who you are (people search sites & google search) are you a scammer/spammer?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
BehindBlueEyes 3y ago
This. Not in my contact list? Good luck getting a hold of me. And people who know me know not to call on my phone. My bank will lock me out of online banking if they want something from me. That will get me driving to the bank to fix the issue in person. Anything less than that will be procrastinated into oblivion.

jollyllama 3y ago

There are absolutely reasons to answer inbound calls. Job seekers will hear from recruiters they haven't heard from yet and heaven help you if you miss a call from a government agency because you'll be waiting on hold for a long time when you call them back. Like anything, there are tradeoffs.

brianwawok 3y ago
Recruiters can email or leave voicemail Government always sends letters, can’t think of a time the IRS has ever called me. But they sure send me a lot of letters.
- jollyllama 3y ago
  Unemployment agencies can call to ask questions about your application and it'll go quicker if you pick up. Often it's important for people to get the unemployment money quickly.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
hn8305823 3y ago
Another example exception: Yesterday I ordered an Uber to go from a hotel to the Airport. Immediately after connecting with a driver I get an inbound call from another state. I'm the type that never answers inbound calls unless it's in my contact list and even then I might not answer and let them leave a VM or follow up with a text. But I made an exception in this case due to the timing and my desire not to miss my flight. It was the Uber driver clarifying the pick-up spot.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  > But I made an exception in this case due to the timing and my desire not to miss my flight. It was the Uber driver clarifying the pick-up spot. This points to failed process on Uber's part. There is no reason an Uber driver should need to call their customer from their personal phone. The pick-up spot is prominently displayed on both the driver's and rider's apps. You can't miss it. Same for delivery drivers. If the package requires an in-person signature, there should be a process for what to do if the customer is not available that does not involve the delivery driver calling from a personal phone.
  - graeme 3y ago
    Would you believe that passengers frequently do not appear at pick up spots? Or that some pickup spots in some geographies in crodwed cities are unclear? Some drivers call proactively to avoid issues. I’ve had multiple calls from Uber drivers.
DontSignAnytng 3y ago
Lol what? What kind of bizzaro world is this?

paultopia 3y ago

But also, how have we not figured out how to stop caller ID spoofing yet? What the fuck?

pbhjpbhj 3y ago
It's not a technical problem, it's a market capitalism problem. Legislate that callers receiving a call without a valid caller ID will be allowed at least one month of bill payments returned and they'd make damn sure that they never routed calls without a caller ID. "Valid" would have to encompass things like 'foreign country of origin', I imagine. So, a call from a scam call center, that the local company allows to be routed, might only have "City, Country". But that would be enough to auto-block all non-domestic calls. Your home country's supplier can decide whether to route calls from a foreign peer, but I imagine that not being able to charge customers would be sufficient impetus? A company routing more than X% of non-IDed calls could be subject to penalties against it's directors (a fine equal to a years income, and/or 5% of all assets, would probably be enough), just to sweeten things. Why aren't we more militant with companies that enable antisocial/scam activities?
- kbolino 3y ago
  Traditional regulatory authority has been moderately effective at getting changes made already, but being too aggressive risks network fragmentation. Even the USA is just one participant in the NANP, never mind the global telephony network. We also don't live in the days of AT&T having a monopoly anymore. Any change requires cooperation between different vendors, and ensuring a smooth rollout means allowing for a slow rollout. This is the telephone system after all, not some startup's barely-used product. Plus the government has multiple arms and some of them don't want the changes to be made or not too quickly (surveillance, stings, etc.).
- friend_and_foe 3y ago
  No, it's a technical problem. These weaknesses exist because legacy systems had them and the entire telephony network is nothing but backwards compatibility and technical debt.

M4v3R 3y ago

There are many other valid reasons to receive a call from an unknown number: - someone from your immediate family lost their phone (or it ran out of battery) and they're calling you from a borrowed phone - someone close to you had an accident and police / hospital is calling you about it - a call from school about your kids - someone you know changed their number - delivery person has a package for you and wants to confirm you're home - you bought something online but they ran out of stock and want to offer you a replacement - etc.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
from-nibly 3y ago
Those people can leave a message.
- fallinghawks 3y ago
  I think answering unknown numbers in real time is situational. I normally don't answer any of them; as you said, if it's important, they'll leave a message. But when I bought a refrigerator I knew delivery people would be calling, so I answered unknown calls until it was done.
- gnicholas 3y ago
  The ability to view a transcript of the message in real-time is a great new feature of iOS 17. I use it all the time — and it's pretty much always junk.
- nanliu 3y ago
  Wait til AI voice spoofing is part of the scammers arsenal.
ghaff 3y ago
I don't always answer calls from random weird area codes. But I'm also not willing to effectively throw out my phone as a way to reach me because I get the odd junk call.

maCDzP 3y ago

I got a call in the middle of the night where an unknown woman kept asking me who i was. I thought it was a scam so I was very vague. The woman then went on to tell me my mom had had a stroke. Unfortunately she was telling the truth. So yeah, sometimes it's good to answer unknown callers.

graeme 3y ago
Indeed. Hospitals and medical providers almost always call from unknown numbers, and if they leave a message the person leaving it may not be reachable easily for callback.

ruddct 3y ago

Another one: > He told me to go to the FTC home page and look up the main phone number. “Now hang up the phone, and I will call you from that number right now.” I did as he said. The FTC number flashed on my screen, and I picked up. “How do I know you’re not just spoofing this?” I asked. > “It’s a government number,” he said, almost indignant. “It cannot be spoofed.” Completely insane that we continue to allow caller ID and number spoofing, it's so effective for these fraud scenarios.

kr0bat 3y ago
I consider myself technically inclined, yet up until today I didn't realize numbers COULD be spoofed One day a few months ago I woke up to a missed call from a verified number. I had been in a car crash the night before, and I was worried I missed a call from the driver's insurance company. I called them back, and I was told that I was talking to a civil engineering firm; the receptionist was polite, but she sounded even more confused than I was. I had googled the number while I was on the phone, and yup, it belonged to a civie firm. At the time I just assumed some engineer fat fingered my number by mistake, but I guess I missed a call from "Amazon" or "your insurance company" or some other nonsense. Funnily enough an insurance scam might have gotten me in the state I was in.
- ghaff 3y ago
  And, in fact, there are good reasons to spoof numbers. For example, a company may want all/many numbers to look like they come from a company's central exchange as opposed to an individual person's desk.
  - lostmsu 3y ago
    That can be achieved through proxying.
prepend 3y ago
Completely insane that someone believes this.

mandeepj 3y ago

> The lesson here is that there's no reason at al to answer any inbound phone call if it's not a personal contact. I was thinking about that the other day. I think 'incoming calls' is an idea that got badly implemented, or I'd even call it one of the worst features ever implemented. Besides my friends and family (I normally text chat with them during day hours and calls after work), why would anyone unsolicitedly call me? I might be in a meeting or deep work; did that never occur to you? So, either I miss those calls or do not pick up. Some scammers are just dumb. One of them called me on a weekend and said - "This is border police". DumbF*k, there's no border police.

trimethylpurine 3y ago

Recently I contested a fraudulent charge on a credit card. When they called me for information about the incident they couldn't offer any way for me to verify that they were from the bank they claimed to be from. No published number. Can't verify my information until they hear me give it. Can't call them back because they have an internal extension, it would go to the regular fraud number which starts the whole process over. My choice was either to cooperate or ignore them and pay the bill. It was in fact the real bank... Sometimes you are forced to risk it.

ParetoOptimal 3y ago
The risk for not paying seems lower for most cases I can personally think of.
- trimethylpurine 3y ago
  This was a $6k transaction. Depends on your lot in life, you're right. But, I think the takeaway is that it takes both you and the bank to prevent fraud. And only one of those is in your control.
BehindBlueEyes 3y ago
I wouldn’t mind starting the whole process over if that was the cost of calling them back vs. Risking a scam on top of the 6000 transaction. That said banks can be pretty bad at avoiding scam-like messaging and promoting bad habbits.
- trimethylpurine 3y ago
  Ah, I meant that there is no way to reach a second tier fraud handler on any published number. If you start over, you'll just repeat the escalation process, and end up with another unverifiable caller asking you to verify information.

paul7986 3y ago

Exactly do not pick up any call unless it's in your contacts already let all others go to voicemail to screen them. Even those voicemails be weary of especially if it's something that sounds scary even a family members voice crying for help..call their phone number directly to see if they are ok (it's not an AI voice). If you do call the unknown number which is possibly using a fake voice of one of your loved ones or friends ask them personal questions and or shared experiences between you and them..the scammers haven't downloaded our memories (not yet at least). Personally I ignore almost unknown calls and voicemails and do not do any online shopping. Those few that I respond back to I'll say I can't verify who you are (people search sites & google search) are you a scammer/spammer?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

BehindBlueEyes 3y ago

This. Not in my contact list? Good luck getting a hold of me. And people who know me know not to call on my phone. My bank will lock me out of online banking if they want something from me. That will get me driving to the bank to fix the issue in person. Anything less than that will be procrastinated into oblivion.