11 ms·

Apple's inspirational note to new hires

165 points by dko 14y ago

sodelate 14y ago
i find it very cool
- mcantelon 14y ago
  right on bro
dvhh 14y ago
nice, but how many of you are ready to sacrifice your life (weekends) for a company's profit. - Curing cancer: yes - Saving lives : yes - Building an outlet for yet spending more money : no As much a I love my work, I won't love it more than my wife, or my future children.
- davidw 14y ago
  Yeah, I had a similar reaction to that line. I might consider working weekends if I get something out of it other than "swimming in the deep end", like, say, extra money, or the prospect of extra money in the future in the case of a startup where one puts in that kind of time in the hope of future rewards. That is made possible by having a significant equity stake in the company. I mean, if you look at it from something of a Homo Economicus point of view, consider the pay rate a good developer gets, and that that money for the weekend is essentially getting donated to Apple Inc, a massively profitable corporation.
  - chc 14y ago
    Making this material attractive to people who would just as soon work as quants is probably not Apple's goal here. If you don't react favorably, you probably aren't what they want. (I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, just that if money is really all you can think of in a job, some companies are more OK with that and others prefer passion, and it's good that people suited for one kind don't end up at the other.)
    - davidw 14y ago
      I'm good at what I do because I'm passionate about it, and I want to be justly compensated for my time. The rest of what they write isn't bad: everyone likes to feel like they're working on something that matters.
    - marvin 14y ago
      Doesn't it somehow rub you the wrong way to pay employees in "passion" versus money? In my head, money is equivalent to respect. If the majority of the earnings from your work goes to someone else and you still have to do work really hard ("because we're changing the world! everyone has to pitch in! weeeeee!!"), you are ipso facto in a position of weakness and are not earning the respect of your superiors. There is something that seems very wrong about this.
    - praptak 14y ago
      > just that if money is really all you can think of in a job, some companies are more OK with that and others prefer passion, and it's good that people suited for one kind don't end up at the other. You seem to imply it's either passion or compensation which looks like a false dichotomy to me. Lots of people have passion for their work but still they're smart enough to avoid companies who treat the passion like a weakness to exploit so that they can pay lower wages.
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
      - pm90 14y ago
        I agree. And it seems a bit hypocritical to be coming from a company that expects higher prices for their products because of the work they have put into it. Why should the employees not expect the same for their time?
        easp 14y ago
        Because some people realize that money is just a tool. They may prefer to get paid to work on something they are passionate about than get paid more for something they aren't. Put another way, if you are going to end up working over a weekend, would you rather do it because you love your work, or because you get paid time-and-a-half?
- kompiebutut 14y ago
  maybe we can replace the 'Apple' word with something that really meant to us. specially kids, they are our greatest startup.
- biot 14y ago
  Do you actively seek to minimize your work to the greatest extent possible so that you can maximize family time? Perhaps if you moved to a country with a really low cost of living, you could consult remotely for a few hours a week and spend every other waking moment constantly interacting with your family. Or is it more about balance and avoiding extremes?
  - dvhh 14y ago
    Hum, even balance is a subjective view in that case, plus my answer would not probably count as much as I am one of those lazy french. I would hope that my view is about balance and avoiding extreme, like it was the case in the game industry a few years ago. About your suggestion, not all of us are willing to do that move ( to "cheaper" country, as we've got anchor in our live, family, friends, cars, house, pet, etc .... ), or got jobs that cannot be done remotely. I have already moved to another country, not because life cost was cheap, but because it was less stressful for me. I am passionate about my work but I mostly focus that passion on side projects and hobby (that is for free). Not saying that mixing work and passion is bad ( I think, it is great ), but that can easily be abused ( game industry, animation industry ). I think it is wrong to push people from the start to work on weekends (that was the way I read it), it is the fastest way to burn them out (speak of personal experience here, first company (start-up) I joined payed me ~900$ a month but I didn't care because I was motivated, worked 10am-8pm~1am including some weekends, after 5-6 years of this I was a mess, Apple is hopefully not be the same ).
- Drbble 14y ago
  > As much a I love my work, I won't love it more than my wife, or my future children. Steve Jobs clearly did, and wanted people with that level of commitment. Can't fault him for trying to find people willing to give him their lives.
  - dvhh 14y ago
    My point is that, that was one of the reason he want a sanctioned biography, so that his children (we can defined children as being the generation living with ubiquitous Apple product such as the iPhone of the iPod, but I will stick to the family definition, adopted like he was or blood related ) know him (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2046367/Steve-Jobs-biography-Apple-boss-authorised-book-children.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2046367/Steve-Jobs-b...), he sacrificed his family life for his job. He did great
  - joering2 14y ago
    Sorry but I can't helped thinking about Adolph Hitler.
  - pm90 14y ago
    True, but he owned the company. That's a pretty huge difference
- raverbashing 14y ago
  Here's the question (which I sincerely don't know the answer) Do Apple offer stock options? Bonus per project? Other factors could be: what's the impact of having Apple in your CV? Getting to say you worked on project X ?(Apparently this is something Apple limits disclosure, still, if you're an cell phone engineer not a lot of projects you could work) Sacrificing your life for a company's profit looks like the job is only a physical process of "turning a money machine". And of course, I hate sacrificing weekends and holidays.
hsshah 14y ago
Nice way to inspire new hires. Like it. However, I worry about Apple lawyers tracking down the person who uploaded this and offer a cease and desist instead of new hire orientation!
hdeshev 14y ago
I'd think all those Foxconn workers need a similar inspiration plaque. They don't play it safe too, you know.
Swizec 14y ago
Honest question: is it really possible to do that sort of work as a cog inside a huge corporation? I'm asking because I'm looking at very likely being gobbled up by such a large corporation ...
- its_so_on 14y ago
  Look at the company's products. If they blow you away, then at least some people at that company get to do work that blows customers away. Now you've reduced the task to evaluating whether you'll be one of those people - ask the right interview/followup questions :) Who knows, maybe by framing yourself right to begin with, you can move into being one of those people in short order... On the whole, of course, it's impossible to tell who gets to do interesting work, and who does mundane work...except by talking with your future colleagues and trying to ask a lot of questions :) Don't forget, that at a tiny company (3-5 people say), you will be far more likely to have to do things that are ridiculously mundane and boring: at the smallest companies it's just part of the job description. I think there's a better chance at a company where for the position you're filling, the job description is making mountains move.
- MaxGabriel 14y ago
  I think Bret Victor's experience could be a useful case study: able to propose and see implemented major interaction paradigms like interacting directly with the screen to eg swipe around on an iPhone, as opposed to pressing a button. And yet, limited by what the company actually did and moreso by the ideas he couldn't share. Edit: http://worrydream.com/#!/Apple http://worrydream.com/#!/Apple
  - username3 14y ago
    Bret's note to anyone in Apple: http://worrydream.com/#!/Departure http://worrydream.com/#!/Departure
- danssig 14y ago
  Pretty much no. There are exceptions but they fit the term "exception" nicely.
twinturbo 14y ago
Inspire your self. This is bullshit.
siculars 14y ago
"... sacrifice a weekend ..." Is that so? Ya, I don't think so. Show me the money.
- Zr40 14y ago
  It's about the work you would sacrifice a weekend for, not about sacrificing weekends.
  - siculars 14y ago
    I read it differently. To me it reads as though they want you to gladly give them more of your only finite resource. If it were as you suggest, there are better ways to say so. Words mater.
josteink 14y ago
So like... A company bragging about itself in a way to make employees work more without asking to get paid for it? Can't say I've seen anything like that before. How original this makes Apple! Back to real life: every company claims to be best, unique or something like that. Some hollow, BS claim to motivate their employees. But just because they print it on a poster doesn't make it any more real. Apple is heartless corporation like all others. This can easily be seen in their profit-margins: They care about money more than anything else. I don't see why Apple fanboys feels the need to make Apple anything more, you know, like a special corporation, which cares about them, personally. If you think that sounds obnoxious or facetious, I've seen people here on HN make those exact claims. Anyway: It's a corporation. Making money. Often in ethically shady ways. Nothing more, nothing less. Like every other corporation.
- SwellJoe 14y ago
  I'd go further, and say that Apple is significantly worse than many other corporations in our industry, in terms of how they treat their people, how they treat their customers, and how they view the world and the ecosystem in which they operate. When Apple has power, they abuse it. When they don't have power, they fight tooth and nail to obtain it, while playing the underdog card. And, there are corporations in our industry that are not "heartless...like all the others". If there weren't, we wouldn't have a higher standard to compare Apple to in order to see their many shortcomings; rarely are those better companies as successful as Apple (which is a great disappointment to me, as a believer in free markets), but many exist. There are, of course, many worse companies, as well. But, Apple certainly isn't a good one.
  - ryannielsen 14y ago
    > I'd go further, and say that Apple is significantly worse than many other corporations in our industry, in terms of how they treat their people, how they treat their customers, and how they view the world and the ecosystem in which they operate. As an Apple customer, shareholder, and ex-employee, I'm curious: what facts do you have to back up that assertion? Apple may not be the best employer in terms of benefits – most teams don't have break rooms full of free snacks, you actually need to pay for the on-site laundry service, salaries often aren't competitive with those of Facebook's and Google's – but I and many others found it to be a fantastic employer. I believe customers have spoken w.r.t. how they feel about Apple's treatment. They're selling products like crazy, the Apple Stores are consistently lauded for fantastic retail and support experiences, and Apple Care's led or been near the top industry satisfaction ratings for over a decade. Finally, regarding the world and ecosystem, Apple aggressively adopted product builds that are more recyclable or more environmentally friendly to produce. They were among the first to reduce the size of their packaging so they could use fewer planes and ships to move product, cutting down on fossil fuel usage and shipping costs. Heck, they've effectively eliminated software shipping impact by moving everyone to their App Stores. Is Apple perfect? No. Are they "significantly worse"? I'd like to hear some facts that back that up... from what I know, they're often significantly better. Also, genuinely curious: what do you hold up as an ideal corporation, and why?
baotiao 14y ago
Work is just part of life, not all.
kamaal 14y ago
>>There's work and there's your life's work. Sure there is, that is why we choose to do it for a price that makes our life rewarding and deserving of such work. Talking of work and no rewards and compensation is not very impressive these days. >>The kind of work that has your fingerprints all over it. Yes that is why commits to source code repos exists. So that users who make them are traceable. Nearly every Open source repository has a AUTHORS/CREDITS files these days. >>The kind of work that you'd never compromise on. That you'd sacrifice a weekend for. I would only sacrifice my time for some compensation in return. >>You can do that kind of work at Apple. People don't come here to play it safe. They come here to swim in the deep end. They want their work to add upto something. Something big, something that couldn't happen else where. They said the same thing to slaves who built the Pyramids, Taj Mahal and Colosseum of Rome. And they did build things far more majestic and time lasting than the iPhone, iPad, Mac or the iPod. I don't wish to die as a slave even if I'm building the Taj Mahal. Nobody cares, and its you who is having this horrible life sacrificing your time, energy and other things in life for somebody else. This is hardly inspirational. This sort of inspiration evaporates in thin air after you receive your salary two months into your job.
- easp 14y ago
  This is just silly. There are many many people who work in exploitive jobs, most don't have reasonable alternatives. In silicon valley, there are likely many engineers who work at exploitive jobs. They likely have reasonable alternatives, but don't take them because they have hopes of a big payout. Then you have Apple employees. They likely have reasonable alternatives to working at Apple, but they aren't their expecting a big jackpot, because Apple is an established public company. So why are they there? Most likely it's because the message of that card does speak to them. If they figure out later that it is BS, they are free to go. For all the secondhand stories I hear of how bad it is to work at Apple, I'm surprised by how few first hand stories I hear.
- ticks 14y ago
  Just a side note. I noticed that when you quoted the first line, you subconsciously added the first two contracted "is" words. When I read the text, I found the first line difficult to read due to the contractions. I wonder why they did it that way.
dsirijus 14y ago
Come to think of it, all this sounds pretty pyramid scheme-ish. Recruit others to sacrifice weekends on vague promises of money and self-fulfillment. Wash them so they tell around how awesome it is to work in such manner and for such a great employer. Iterate.
- Tycho 14y ago
  Good thing that brainwashing is so easy these days.
jwingy 14y ago
Despite everyone's dislike of this, you have to think of this from the company's perspective. What's the cost of producing this? If they get even one sucker to buy into it, it'll have already paid for itself many times over.
- dsirijus 14y ago
  ...and if someone doesn't buy it, they've lost a smart person who sees through bs.
navs 14y ago
Seems like the kind of message you want to see on your first day or during a recruitment drive. I'm sure the ecstasy of the moment wears off after a while as the reality of a business/work environment settles in.
maeon3 14y ago
Man, every post I'm reading is negative, it's just a motivational poster, I liked it. You only have on life, give it 100%. Whatever you are doing, do it like you only have one day left to do it with. I'm disappointed that HN would blow out of proportion the one cloud on the beautiful day.
- dsirijus 14y ago
  Obviously, the folk around here ain't the one to "keep in line". EDIT: Up-voted the replied-to comment, because I respect the contrary opinion when it's underdog.
- praptak 14y ago
  > it's just a motivational poster Here's my favourite quote about motivational posters, DeMarco & Lister "Peopleware": "These motivational accessories, as they are called (including slogan coffee mugs, plaques, pins, key chains, and awards), are a triumph of form over substance. They seem to extol the importance of Quality, Leadership, Creativity, Teamwork, Loyalty, and a host of other organizational virtues. But they do so in such simplistic terms as to send an entirely different message: Management here believes that these virtues can be improved with posters rather than by hard work and managerial talent. Everyone quickly understands that the presence of the posters is a sure sign of the absence of hard work and talent." More on this: "Motivational accessories are phony enough to make most people's skin crawl. They do harm in healthy organizations. The only place where they do no harm is where they are ignored—as in companies where the harm was done long, long ago and people have ceased to register any further decline."
  - raverbashing 14y ago
    Yes, if you go to eBay and order a couple of motivational posters this will only lower morale. Everybody will notice the BS But this is something different. It's what the company truly believes. Or do you see something not matching Apple's beliefe there? If you don't believe that, you certainly won't be a good fit. Now, RedHat can put a poster like "The Power is in the Community" and if you don't like or understand that you certainly won't be able to blend in. Even if you're management. Now, do you think Google could honestly put a poster "Don't be evil" today?
buster 14y ago
Wow.. that just sounds like "we expect you work over hours and weekends".. just sugar coated with nice words.
hownottowrite 14y ago
Wait a minute... Is that a tear-stain on the word "anywhere"?
pm90 14y ago
Somehow, I feel that the following short anecdote is appropriate here: "There are ancient cathedrals which, apart from their consecrated purpose, inspire solemnity and awe. Even the curious visitor speaks of serious things, with hushed voice, and as each whisper reverberates through the vaulted nave, the returning echo seems to bear a message of mystery. The labor of generations of architects and artisans has been forgotten, the scaffolding erected for their toil has long since been removed, their mistakes have been erased, or have become hidden by the dust of centuries. Seeing only the perfection of the completed whole, we are impressed as by some superhuman agency. But sometimes we enter such an edifice that is still partly under construction; then the sound of hammers, the reek of tobacco, the trivial jests bandied from workman to workman, enable us to realize that these great structures are but the result of giving to ordinary human effort a direction and purpose. Science has its cathedrals, built by the efforts of a few architects and of many workers." -Gilbet Newton Lewis
theorique 14y ago
Apple is a cult? I believe it. Not that I'm complaining, as I type this on my MacBook Pro, with my iPhone beside it and my iPad 3 and iPod Nano in the backpack on the floor. Cult or not, they make high quality products at high prices. I've drunk the Kool-Aid just like many of you.
- thatjoshguy 14y ago
  > I've drunk the Kool-Aid just like many of you. There's a difference between drinking the Kool-Aid and knowing why people drink the Kool-Aid
  - theorique 14y ago
    True. I respect what they have created, even as I'm skeptical of some of the aspects of it (walled gardens, etc). The fact that I'm able to use a Unix workstation - that also runs common office apps (MSFT, etc) for interoperability with the non-hacker world - solidified my (guarded, skeptical) loyalty to the Apple platform. Their "one way to do it" approach can be exasperating but it's generally a smart and lucrative business strategy.
ThomPete 14y ago
The day that any other company is even able to remotely make such a down to earth note and yet so prosaic the negative comments will make sense.
nhangen 14y ago
As someone who is currently working in an organization that doesn't offer me that sort of fulfillment, I'd love to be working for Apple and receiving that on day 1. Not everyone is going to be an entrepreneur, fewer of us will be successful entrepreneurs. If we are going to work for someone else, it's nice to be able to do something we can be proud of. I imagine that working for Apple makes that possible.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
m0skit0 14y ago
Meh, useless blabla from big corps. The real meaning: "devote your a to the company, and maybe we'll consider sharing some of our extraordinary benefits".
kellishaver 14y ago
In my head, that letter was narrated by Richard Dreyfuss as I read it. It feels very much like their advertizing. My gut reaction would be to simultaneously be excited about the possibilities and worried over what I had gotten myself into, since i was clearly being sold to in such a manner. That's pretty much what I imagine working at Apple is like, though - potentially awesome, fun, exciting, and interesting work, stressful, difficult, and somewhat abusive company culture and demands. So, I guess maybe it's accurate.
Gal3rielol 14y ago
some people are so mean. It is just a inspirational note. someone behaves like apple owe him a lot.
outside1234 14y ago
Let me write my own version based on experience: "There's work and then there's my life's work. The kind of work that will make me millions. You'll work weekends while I'm at my 5000 sqft "green" house in Portola Valley or Tahoe on Friday through Monday. You will do that work here at Apple. We don't want people to come here and play it safe. We want people to come here that want to drink the kool-aid. We want their work to add up to something for us. If it doesn't, prepare to be screamed at once a day or more. I want your work to add up to something. Something big. Something that results in wealth for me. Welcome to burnout. You'll only last 3 years and then I'll replace you with new kool-aid.
nollidge 14y ago
My grandpa used to say: The thanks is in the paycheck. You want my weekends? Fuck you, pay me.
- jopt 14y ago
  That just means you're not doing the sort of work you'd sacrifice a weekend for. Why is everyone in this thread boasting about this?
  - jarek 14y ago
    What kind of work would you sacrifice a weekend for? Edit: I mean specifically.
    - Karunamon 14y ago
      Something interesting and with potential. The same reason any hacker willingly takes on any project. Find what you love to do, and then find a way to get paid doing it.
      - jarek 14y ago
        Sorry, I meant specifically, as in a specific field/project jopt would sacrifice a weekend for. Working weekends seems like a good way to not get fully paid for doing what you love to do.
        Karunamon 14y ago
        Then it would be different each person. I've blown more than one weekend on a couple of interesting Ruby issues which were semi-related to my employment. What it comes back to though, is if you have the right value of "love to do", the pay becomes secondary to the problem. This doesn't mean that you let a company walk all over you of course, but that you are having a good time cash or no cash. Generally one should expect to be compensated appropriately for weekend work :)
blinkingled 14y ago
Reading the comments, a question just struck me - honestly how many of the really competent people (the ones who make real difference in the world) think about what corporation they are willing to work for and on what grounds? Brad Fitzpatrick (memcached fame) for instance mentions this in the Android performance related video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=c4znvD-7VDA#t=67s http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v... - believes in open source, doesn't want Android to fail due to responsiveness issues - that's his motivation. What might be the motivations of great people lately working for Apple - they can make a great product anywhere, why with Apple?
- webwright 14y ago
  "they can make a great product anywhere, why with Apple?" How many software/hardware companies are making great products? I'm an Apple user (though I very much dislike the behavior of the company), but I'm hard-pressed to name any company building better products than Apple. Or even name many that are in the neighborhood.
  - blinkingled 14y ago
    Well, Apple is sum of its parts - it's the people that make Apple into what they are. So presumably they can build great products under different corporation? I can think of the money problem - if a great product requires the kind of money that only Apple can afford - but how many great products require that kind of money?
    - wrs 14y ago
      Oh, if only that were true. Great people can build great products only in a corporation whose culture allows (or, ideally, encourages) that to happen. Money is a lot easier to find than culture and commitment.
- moron 14y ago
  > they can make a great product anywhere, why with Apple? I bet a lot of them would disagree with your premise. You can't just make a great product anywhere, a lot of things need to be in place for that to happen.
adamio 14y ago
Since this message is directed to new hires, probably in a new-hire orientation, I don't see a problem. New hires know exactly what they're getting into with Apple, at this point. At least this message has more soul and honesty than "we're a people company". Also, isn't it saying you're not a cog here. If that's a flat out lie, then ok, but its a nice thought.
salimmadjd 14y ago
And the person got fired on his first day after sharing "company's secret"
podperson 14y ago
I should note that the person who posted this thought it was inspiring.
lionelhutz1 14y ago
Ah, the smell of do-gooders in the morning. One day you all will learn that there is no shortage of people who think they deserve the fruits of your labor, through no work of their own. They will not give you the option of supporting the needy voluntarily, through charity. They will seize your money, by force, by a willing government eager to buy their votes with the sweat of your hard work. Once you eek out a successful living where you actually pay real taxes, you will begin to grow frustrated with the lack of control that you will have with your own money. But even if you don't. Who the hell do you think you are to tell me that my money, which I work for, belongs to someone else? Its quite ironic and hypocritical to say that wanting to keep one's own money is greed, but wanting to take someone else's money by force is justice.
lionelhutz1 14y ago
That's the great thing about a free market. You are free to do whatever you want. If working at Apple is such a piss-poor experience, and you are certain that your talents are soooo valuable to the world, then don't work at Apple and take your amazing abilities elsewhere. Certainly their must be hundreds of companies just dyyyiiing to get their hands on your unmatched grey matter. So quit bitching and work somewhere else.
- chauzer 14y ago
  No one is this thread is complaining about themselves working at Apple because they don't believe in the company's treatment of their employees and their general business practices. They all already work somewhere else because of this.
lionelhutz1 14y ago
Let me tell you an unfortunate truth: Think of everyone you really respect. Really look up to. Every one of them are risk takers. At some point, they jumped in the deep end. Those who play it safe go nowhere. Apple knows that in order to lead, they need those kind of people. If that isn't you, fine. Go work for Sun. Or RIM. Or Nokia. Or Yahoo.
sakopov 14y ago
I don't see anything wrong with Apple doing this. I mean, you have to make new folks feel welcome and like they've made a good decision. Keep in mind though, Apple is a corporation and as one the only thing they care about is profits and the only people they care about is the executive committee. It's just like any other big corp.
djt 14y ago
I think a lot of the comments here show that there is a large number of people that are pissed off because they work for a company and feel devalued. I can identify with this statement and Apple trying to reiterate their core values to new staff. Sure you may not hit the mark 100% of the time, but surely they would have trouble retaining staff if they are lying. I also think that this whole "Profit Margin" bashing needs to stop. Yes they make large margins, no they don't profit share with most of their staff. It's the way almost every business works. If you disagree then I encourage you to start your own company and give it a shot rather then shouting abuse from the sidelines.
adamtj 14y ago
That's some pretty bad typography. Is that really from Apple?
jaimzob 14y ago
Thoroughly depressed by the responses here - especially on a site that prides itself (or used to) on being more nuanced and intelligent than average. If you don't like the message then fine, it's a little saccharine for my taste, but it doesn't make Apple a 'soulless' company, it doesn't make Apple customers empty-headed morons suffering from "stockholm syndrome", and snarking at it does not elevate you above those people who do believe in the message. Quite the opposite.

165 points by dko 14y ago

sodelate 14y ago

i find it very cool

mcantelon 14y ago
right on bro

dvhh 14y ago

nice, but how many of you are ready to sacrifice your life (weekends) for a company's profit. - Curing cancer: yes - Saving lives : yes - Building an outlet for yet spending more money : no As much a I love my work, I won't love it more than my wife, or my future children.

davidw 14y ago
Yeah, I had a similar reaction to that line. I might consider working weekends if I get something out of it other than "swimming in the deep end", like, say, extra money, or the prospect of extra money in the future in the case of a startup where one puts in that kind of time in the hope of future rewards. That is made possible by having a significant equity stake in the company. I mean, if you look at it from something of a Homo Economicus point of view, consider the pay rate a good developer gets, and that that money for the weekend is essentially getting donated to Apple Inc, a massively profitable corporation.
- chc 14y ago
  Making this material attractive to people who would just as soon work as quants is probably not Apple's goal here. If you don't react favorably, you probably aren't what they want. (I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, just that if money is really all you can think of in a job, some companies are more OK with that and others prefer passion, and it's good that people suited for one kind don't end up at the other.)
  - davidw 14y ago
    I'm good at what I do because I'm passionate about it, and I want to be justly compensated for my time. The rest of what they write isn't bad: everyone likes to feel like they're working on something that matters.
  - marvin 14y ago
    Doesn't it somehow rub you the wrong way to pay employees in "passion" versus money? In my head, money is equivalent to respect. If the majority of the earnings from your work goes to someone else and you still have to do work really hard ("because we're changing the world! everyone has to pitch in! weeeeee!!"), you are ipso facto in a position of weakness and are not earning the respect of your superiors. There is something that seems very wrong about this.
  - praptak 14y ago
    > just that if money is really all you can think of in a job, some companies are more OK with that and others prefer passion, and it's good that people suited for one kind don't end up at the other. You seem to imply it's either passion or compensation which looks like a false dichotomy to me. Lots of people have passion for their work but still they're smart enough to avoid companies who treat the passion like a weakness to exploit so that they can pay lower wages.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - pm90 14y ago
      I agree. And it seems a bit hypocritical to be coming from a company that expects higher prices for their products because of the work they have put into it. Why should the employees not expect the same for their time?
      - easp 14y ago
        Because some people realize that money is just a tool. They may prefer to get paid to work on something they are passionate about than get paid more for something they aren't. Put another way, if you are going to end up working over a weekend, would you rather do it because you love your work, or because you get paid time-and-a-half?
kompiebutut 14y ago
maybe we can replace the 'Apple' word with something that really meant to us. specially kids, they are our greatest startup.
biot 14y ago
Do you actively seek to minimize your work to the greatest extent possible so that you can maximize family time? Perhaps if you moved to a country with a really low cost of living, you could consult remotely for a few hours a week and spend every other waking moment constantly interacting with your family. Or is it more about balance and avoiding extremes?
- dvhh 14y ago
  Hum, even balance is a subjective view in that case, plus my answer would not probably count as much as I am one of those lazy french. I would hope that my view is about balance and avoiding extreme, like it was the case in the game industry a few years ago. About your suggestion, not all of us are willing to do that move ( to "cheaper" country, as we've got anchor in our live, family, friends, cars, house, pet, etc .... ), or got jobs that cannot be done remotely. I have already moved to another country, not because life cost was cheap, but because it was less stressful for me. I am passionate about my work but I mostly focus that passion on side projects and hobby (that is for free). Not saying that mixing work and passion is bad ( I think, it is great ), but that can easily be abused ( game industry, animation industry ). I think it is wrong to push people from the start to work on weekends (that was the way I read it), it is the fastest way to burn them out (speak of personal experience here, first company (start-up) I joined payed me ~900$ a month but I didn't care because I was motivated, worked 10am-8pm~1am including some weekends, after 5-6 years of this I was a mess, Apple is hopefully not be the same ).
Drbble 14y ago
> As much a I love my work, I won't love it more than my wife, or my future children. Steve Jobs clearly did, and wanted people with that level of commitment. Can't fault him for trying to find people willing to give him their lives.
- dvhh 14y ago
  My point is that, that was one of the reason he want a sanctioned biography, so that his children (we can defined children as being the generation living with ubiquitous Apple product such as the iPhone of the iPod, but I will stick to the family definition, adopted like he was or blood related ) know him (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2046367/Steve-Jobs-biography-Apple-boss-authorised-book-children.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2046367/Steve-Jobs-b...), he sacrificed his family life for his job. He did great
- joering2 14y ago
  Sorry but I can't helped thinking about Adolph Hitler.
- pm90 14y ago
  True, but he owned the company. That's a pretty huge difference
raverbashing 14y ago
Here's the question (which I sincerely don't know the answer) Do Apple offer stock options? Bonus per project? Other factors could be: what's the impact of having Apple in your CV? Getting to say you worked on project X ?(Apparently this is something Apple limits disclosure, still, if you're an cell phone engineer not a lot of projects you could work) Sacrificing your life for a company's profit looks like the job is only a physical process of "turning a money machine". And of course, I hate sacrificing weekends and holidays.

hsshah 14y ago

Nice way to inspire new hires. Like it. However, I worry about Apple lawyers tracking down the person who uploaded this and offer a cease and desist instead of new hire orientation!

hdeshev 14y ago

I'd think all those Foxconn workers need a similar inspiration plaque. They don't play it safe too, you know.

Swizec 14y ago

Honest question: is it really possible to do that sort of work as a cog inside a huge corporation? I'm asking because I'm looking at very likely being gobbled up by such a large corporation ...

its_so_on 14y ago
Look at the company's products. If they blow you away, then at least some people at that company get to do work that blows customers away. Now you've reduced the task to evaluating whether you'll be one of those people - ask the right interview/followup questions :) Who knows, maybe by framing yourself right to begin with, you can move into being one of those people in short order... On the whole, of course, it's impossible to tell who gets to do interesting work, and who does mundane work...except by talking with your future colleagues and trying to ask a lot of questions :) Don't forget, that at a tiny company (3-5 people say), you will be far more likely to have to do things that are ridiculously mundane and boring: at the smallest companies it's just part of the job description. I think there's a better chance at a company where for the position you're filling, the job description is making mountains move.
MaxGabriel 14y ago
I think Bret Victor's experience could be a useful case study: able to propose and see implemented major interaction paradigms like interacting directly with the screen to eg swipe around on an iPhone, as opposed to pressing a button. And yet, limited by what the company actually did and moreso by the ideas he couldn't share. Edit: http://worrydream.com/#!/Apple http://worrydream.com/#!/Apple
- username3 14y ago
  Bret's note to anyone in Apple: http://worrydream.com/#!/Departure http://worrydream.com/#!/Departure
danssig 14y ago
Pretty much no. There are exceptions but they fit the term "exception" nicely.

twinturbo 14y ago

Inspire your self. This is bullshit.

siculars 14y ago

"... sacrifice a weekend ..." Is that so? Ya, I don't think so. Show me the money.

Zr40 14y ago
It's about the work you would sacrifice a weekend for, not about sacrificing weekends.
- siculars 14y ago
  I read it differently. To me it reads as though they want you to gladly give them more of your only finite resource. If it were as you suggest, there are better ways to say so. Words mater.

josteink 14y ago

So like... A company bragging about itself in a way to make employees work more without asking to get paid for it? Can't say I've seen anything like that before. How original this makes Apple! Back to real life: every company claims to be best, unique or something like that. Some hollow, BS claim to motivate their employees. But just because they print it on a poster doesn't make it any more real. Apple is heartless corporation like all others. This can easily be seen in their profit-margins: They care about money more than anything else. I don't see why Apple fanboys feels the need to make Apple anything more, you know, like a special corporation, which cares about them, personally. If you think that sounds obnoxious or facetious, I've seen people here on HN make those exact claims. Anyway: It's a corporation. Making money. Often in ethically shady ways. Nothing more, nothing less. Like every other corporation.

SwellJoe 14y ago
I'd go further, and say that Apple is significantly worse than many other corporations in our industry, in terms of how they treat their people, how they treat their customers, and how they view the world and the ecosystem in which they operate. When Apple has power, they abuse it. When they don't have power, they fight tooth and nail to obtain it, while playing the underdog card. And, there are corporations in our industry that are not "heartless...like all the others". If there weren't, we wouldn't have a higher standard to compare Apple to in order to see their many shortcomings; rarely are those better companies as successful as Apple (which is a great disappointment to me, as a believer in free markets), but many exist. There are, of course, many worse companies, as well. But, Apple certainly isn't a good one.
- ryannielsen 14y ago
  > I'd go further, and say that Apple is significantly worse than many other corporations in our industry, in terms of how they treat their people, how they treat their customers, and how they view the world and the ecosystem in which they operate. As an Apple customer, shareholder, and ex-employee, I'm curious: what facts do you have to back up that assertion? Apple may not be the best employer in terms of benefits – most teams don't have break rooms full of free snacks, you actually need to pay for the on-site laundry service, salaries often aren't competitive with those of Facebook's and Google's – but I and many others found it to be a fantastic employer. I believe customers have spoken w.r.t. how they feel about Apple's treatment. They're selling products like crazy, the Apple Stores are consistently lauded for fantastic retail and support experiences, and Apple Care's led or been near the top industry satisfaction ratings for over a decade. Finally, regarding the world and ecosystem, Apple aggressively adopted product builds that are more recyclable or more environmentally friendly to produce. They were among the first to reduce the size of their packaging so they could use fewer planes and ships to move product, cutting down on fossil fuel usage and shipping costs. Heck, they've effectively eliminated software shipping impact by moving everyone to their App Stores. Is Apple perfect? No. Are they "significantly worse"? I'd like to hear some facts that back that up... from what I know, they're often significantly better. Also, genuinely curious: what do you hold up as an ideal corporation, and why?

baotiao 14y ago

Work is just part of life, not all.

kamaal 14y ago

>>There's work and there's your life's work. Sure there is, that is why we choose to do it for a price that makes our life rewarding and deserving of such work. Talking of work and no rewards and compensation is not very impressive these days. >>The kind of work that has your fingerprints all over it. Yes that is why commits to source code repos exists. So that users who make them are traceable. Nearly every Open source repository has a AUTHORS/CREDITS files these days. >>The kind of work that you'd never compromise on. That you'd sacrifice a weekend for. I would only sacrifice my time for some compensation in return. >>You can do that kind of work at Apple. People don't come here to play it safe. They come here to swim in the deep end. They want their work to add upto something. Something big, something that couldn't happen else where. They said the same thing to slaves who built the Pyramids, Taj Mahal and Colosseum of Rome. And they did build things far more majestic and time lasting than the iPhone, iPad, Mac or the iPod. I don't wish to die as a slave even if I'm building the Taj Mahal. Nobody cares, and its you who is having this horrible life sacrificing your time, energy and other things in life for somebody else. This is hardly inspirational. This sort of inspiration evaporates in thin air after you receive your salary two months into your job.

easp 14y ago
This is just silly. There are many many people who work in exploitive jobs, most don't have reasonable alternatives. In silicon valley, there are likely many engineers who work at exploitive jobs. They likely have reasonable alternatives, but don't take them because they have hopes of a big payout. Then you have Apple employees. They likely have reasonable alternatives to working at Apple, but they aren't their expecting a big jackpot, because Apple is an established public company. So why are they there? Most likely it's because the message of that card does speak to them. If they figure out later that it is BS, they are free to go. For all the secondhand stories I hear of how bad it is to work at Apple, I'm surprised by how few first hand stories I hear.
ticks 14y ago
Just a side note. I noticed that when you quoted the first line, you subconsciously added the first two contracted "is" words. When I read the text, I found the first line difficult to read due to the contractions. I wonder why they did it that way.

dsirijus 14y ago

Come to think of it, all this sounds pretty pyramid scheme-ish. Recruit others to sacrifice weekends on vague promises of money and self-fulfillment. Wash them so they tell around how awesome it is to work in such manner and for such a great employer. Iterate.

Tycho 14y ago
Good thing that brainwashing is so easy these days.

jwingy 14y ago

Despite everyone's dislike of this, you have to think of this from the company's perspective. What's the cost of producing this? If they get even one sucker to buy into it, it'll have already paid for itself many times over.

dsirijus 14y ago
...and if someone doesn't buy it, they've lost a smart person who sees through bs.

navs 14y ago

Seems like the kind of message you want to see on your first day or during a recruitment drive. I'm sure the ecstasy of the moment wears off after a while as the reality of a business/work environment settles in.

maeon3 14y ago

Man, every post I'm reading is negative, it's just a motivational poster, I liked it. You only have on life, give it 100%. Whatever you are doing, do it like you only have one day left to do it with. I'm disappointed that HN would blow out of proportion the one cloud on the beautiful day.

dsirijus 14y ago
Obviously, the folk around here ain't the one to "keep in line". EDIT: Up-voted the replied-to comment, because I respect the contrary opinion when it's underdog.
praptak 14y ago
> it's just a motivational poster Here's my favourite quote about motivational posters, DeMarco & Lister "Peopleware": "These motivational accessories, as they are called (including slogan coffee mugs, plaques, pins, key chains, and awards), are a triumph of form over substance. They seem to extol the importance of Quality, Leadership, Creativity, Teamwork, Loyalty, and a host of other organizational virtues. But they do so in such simplistic terms as to send an entirely different message: Management here believes that these virtues can be improved with posters rather than by hard work and managerial talent. Everyone quickly understands that the presence of the posters is a sure sign of the absence of hard work and talent." More on this: "Motivational accessories are phony enough to make most people's skin crawl. They do harm in healthy organizations. The only place where they do no harm is where they are ignored—as in companies where the harm was done long, long ago and people have ceased to register any further decline."
- raverbashing 14y ago
  Yes, if you go to eBay and order a couple of motivational posters this will only lower morale. Everybody will notice the BS But this is something different. It's what the company truly believes. Or do you see something not matching Apple's beliefe there? If you don't believe that, you certainly won't be a good fit. Now, RedHat can put a poster like "The Power is in the Community" and if you don't like or understand that you certainly won't be able to blend in. Even if you're management. Now, do you think Google could honestly put a poster "Don't be evil" today?

buster 14y ago

Wow.. that just sounds like "we expect you work over hours and weekends".. just sugar coated with nice words.

hownottowrite 14y ago

Wait a minute... Is that a tear-stain on the word "anywhere"?

pm90 14y ago

Somehow, I feel that the following short anecdote is appropriate here: "There are ancient cathedrals which, apart from their consecrated purpose, inspire solemnity and awe. Even the curious visitor speaks of serious things, with hushed voice, and as each whisper reverberates through the vaulted nave, the returning echo seems to bear a message of mystery. The labor of generations of architects and artisans has been forgotten, the scaffolding erected for their toil has long since been removed, their mistakes have been erased, or have become hidden by the dust of centuries. Seeing only the perfection of the completed whole, we are impressed as by some superhuman agency. But sometimes we enter such an edifice that is still partly under construction; then the sound of hammers, the reek of tobacco, the trivial jests bandied from workman to workman, enable us to realize that these great structures are but the result of giving to ordinary human effort a direction and purpose. Science has its cathedrals, built by the efforts of a few architects and of many workers." -Gilbet Newton Lewis

theorique 14y ago

Apple is a cult? I believe it. Not that I'm complaining, as I type this on my MacBook Pro, with my iPhone beside it and my iPad 3 and iPod Nano in the backpack on the floor. Cult or not, they make high quality products at high prices. I've drunk the Kool-Aid just like many of you.

thatjoshguy 14y ago
> I've drunk the Kool-Aid just like many of you. There's a difference between drinking the Kool-Aid and knowing why people drink the Kool-Aid
- theorique 14y ago
  True. I respect what they have created, even as I'm skeptical of some of the aspects of it (walled gardens, etc). The fact that I'm able to use a Unix workstation - that also runs common office apps (MSFT, etc) for interoperability with the non-hacker world - solidified my (guarded, skeptical) loyalty to the Apple platform. Their "one way to do it" approach can be exasperating but it's generally a smart and lucrative business strategy.

ThomPete 14y ago

The day that any other company is even able to remotely make such a down to earth note and yet so prosaic the negative comments will make sense.

nhangen 14y ago

As someone who is currently working in an organization that doesn't offer me that sort of fulfillment, I'd love to be working for Apple and receiving that on day 1. Not everyone is going to be an entrepreneur, fewer of us will be successful entrepreneurs. If we are going to work for someone else, it's nice to be able to do something we can be proud of. I imagine that working for Apple makes that possible.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

m0skit0 14y ago

Meh, useless blabla from big corps. The real meaning: "devote your a to the company, and maybe we'll consider sharing some of our extraordinary benefits".

kellishaver 14y ago

In my head, that letter was narrated by Richard Dreyfuss as I read it. It feels very much like their advertizing. My gut reaction would be to simultaneously be excited about the possibilities and worried over what I had gotten myself into, since i was clearly being sold to in such a manner. That's pretty much what I imagine working at Apple is like, though - potentially awesome, fun, exciting, and interesting work, stressful, difficult, and somewhat abusive company culture and demands. So, I guess maybe it's accurate.

Gal3rielol 14y ago

some people are so mean. It is just a inspirational note. someone behaves like apple owe him a lot.

outside1234 14y ago

Let me write my own version based on experience: "There's work and then there's my life's work. The kind of work that will make me millions. You'll work weekends while I'm at my 5000 sqft "green" house in Portola Valley or Tahoe on Friday through Monday. You will do that work here at Apple. We don't want people to come here and play it safe. We want people to come here that want to drink the kool-aid. We want their work to add up to something for us. If it doesn't, prepare to be screamed at once a day or more. I want your work to add up to something. Something big. Something that results in wealth for me. Welcome to burnout. You'll only last 3 years and then I'll replace you with new kool-aid.

nollidge 14y ago

My grandpa used to say: The thanks is in the paycheck. You want my weekends? Fuck you, pay me.

jopt 14y ago
That just means you're not doing the sort of work you'd sacrifice a weekend for. Why is everyone in this thread boasting about this?
- jarek 14y ago
  What kind of work would you sacrifice a weekend for? Edit: I mean specifically.
  - Karunamon 14y ago
    Something interesting and with potential. The same reason any hacker willingly takes on any project. Find what you love to do, and then find a way to get paid doing it.
    - jarek 14y ago
      Sorry, I meant specifically, as in a specific field/project jopt would sacrifice a weekend for. Working weekends seems like a good way to not get fully paid for doing what you love to do.
      - Karunamon 14y ago
        Then it would be different each person. I've blown more than one weekend on a couple of interesting Ruby issues which were semi-related to my employment. What it comes back to though, is if you have the right value of "love to do", the pay becomes secondary to the problem. This doesn't mean that you let a company walk all over you of course, but that you are having a good time cash or no cash. Generally one should expect to be compensated appropriately for weekend work :)

blinkingled 14y ago

Reading the comments, a question just struck me - honestly how many of the really competent people (the ones who make real difference in the world) think about what corporation they are willing to work for and on what grounds? Brad Fitzpatrick (memcached fame) for instance mentions this in the Android performance related video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=c4znvD-7VDA#t=67s http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v... - believes in open source, doesn't want Android to fail due to responsiveness issues - that's his motivation. What might be the motivations of great people lately working for Apple - they can make a great product anywhere, why with Apple?

webwright 14y ago
"they can make a great product anywhere, why with Apple?" How many software/hardware companies are making great products? I'm an Apple user (though I very much dislike the behavior of the company), but I'm hard-pressed to name any company building better products than Apple. Or even name many that are in the neighborhood.
- blinkingled 14y ago
  Well, Apple is sum of its parts - it's the people that make Apple into what they are. So presumably they can build great products under different corporation? I can think of the money problem - if a great product requires the kind of money that only Apple can afford - but how many great products require that kind of money?
  - wrs 14y ago
    Oh, if only that were true. Great people can build great products only in a corporation whose culture allows (or, ideally, encourages) that to happen. Money is a lot easier to find than culture and commitment.
moron 14y ago
> they can make a great product anywhere, why with Apple? I bet a lot of them would disagree with your premise. You can't just make a great product anywhere, a lot of things need to be in place for that to happen.

adamio 14y ago

Since this message is directed to new hires, probably in a new-hire orientation, I don't see a problem. New hires know exactly what they're getting into with Apple, at this point. At least this message has more soul and honesty than "we're a people company". Also, isn't it saying you're not a cog here. If that's a flat out lie, then ok, but its a nice thought.

salimmadjd 14y ago

And the person got fired on his first day after sharing "company's secret"

podperson 14y ago

I should note that the person who posted this thought it was inspiring.

lionelhutz1 14y ago

Ah, the smell of do-gooders in the morning. One day you all will learn that there is no shortage of people who think they deserve the fruits of your labor, through no work of their own. They will not give you the option of supporting the needy voluntarily, through charity. They will seize your money, by force, by a willing government eager to buy their votes with the sweat of your hard work. Once you eek out a successful living where you actually pay real taxes, you will begin to grow frustrated with the lack of control that you will have with your own money. But even if you don't. Who the hell do you think you are to tell me that my money, which I work for, belongs to someone else? Its quite ironic and hypocritical to say that wanting to keep one's own money is greed, but wanting to take someone else's money by force is justice.

lionelhutz1 14y ago

That's the great thing about a free market. You are free to do whatever you want. If working at Apple is such a piss-poor experience, and you are certain that your talents are soooo valuable to the world, then don't work at Apple and take your amazing abilities elsewhere. Certainly their must be hundreds of companies just dyyyiiing to get their hands on your unmatched grey matter. So quit bitching and work somewhere else.

chauzer 14y ago
No one is this thread is complaining about themselves working at Apple because they don't believe in the company's treatment of their employees and their general business practices. They all already work somewhere else because of this.

lionelhutz1 14y ago

Let me tell you an unfortunate truth: Think of everyone you really respect. Really look up to. Every one of them are risk takers. At some point, they jumped in the deep end. Those who play it safe go nowhere. Apple knows that in order to lead, they need those kind of people. If that isn't you, fine. Go work for Sun. Or RIM. Or Nokia. Or Yahoo.

sakopov 14y ago

I don't see anything wrong with Apple doing this. I mean, you have to make new folks feel welcome and like they've made a good decision. Keep in mind though, Apple is a corporation and as one the only thing they care about is profits and the only people they care about is the executive committee. It's just like any other big corp.

djt 14y ago

I think a lot of the comments here show that there is a large number of people that are pissed off because they work for a company and feel devalued. I can identify with this statement and Apple trying to reiterate their core values to new staff. Sure you may not hit the mark 100% of the time, but surely they would have trouble retaining staff if they are lying. I also think that this whole "Profit Margin" bashing needs to stop. Yes they make large margins, no they don't profit share with most of their staff. It's the way almost every business works. If you disagree then I encourage you to start your own company and give it a shot rather then shouting abuse from the sidelines.

adamtj 14y ago

That's some pretty bad typography. Is that really from Apple?

jaimzob 14y ago

Thoroughly depressed by the responses here - especially on a site that prides itself (or used to) on being more nuanced and intelligent than average. If you don't like the message then fine, it's a little saccharine for my taste, but it doesn't make Apple a 'soulless' company, it doesn't make Apple customers empty-headed morons suffering from "stockholm syndrome", and snarking at it does not elevate you above those people who do believe in the message. Quite the opposite.