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Join a Union. The bitter truth is your employer has a lot more lawyers than you do. For all the talk about how well-compensated and in-demand tech workers are,

by edent 3y ago

Join a Union. The bitter truth is your employer has a lot more lawyers than you do. For all the talk about how well-compensated and in-demand tech workers are, the reality is usually different. You need someone in your corner to help you fight for your rights. If you're a tech worker in the UK, you can get three months free membership at https://prospect.org.uk/join/ https://prospect.org.uk/join/

pjmlp 3y ago
Germany, IG Metal and Verdi are active on IT field.
- martinsnow 3y ago
  Salaries in Germany are really low compared to Denmark and Norway.
  - hulitu 3y ago
    And how is the cost of living ?
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    I have done a quite decent life since 2004, can't complain.
maxehmookau 3y ago
Join. A. Union. https://utaw.tech/join/ https://utaw.tech/join/ also good. Think of it as having an employment lawyer on retainer for £8 a month. Well worth the money.
- rakoo 3y ago
  In IT we have it pretty easy and can rebound without as much hassle as other domains, so we think we're kinda safe. We're not. Join a union when things are good, to help you when things are bad.
  - diggan 3y ago
    > In IT we have it pretty easy and can rebound without as much hassle as other domains, so we think we're kind safe. We're not. Seems even people in the US aren't actually that well off, as the author said they'd experience "acute financial stress" if it wasn't for the severance: > [...] and was told that the severance offered would give me at least a few months free from acute financial stress [...]
    - maxehmookau 3y ago
      Wait until America wakes up and reads this thread. The anti-union feeling over there is very peculiar to Europeans.
      - tjpnz 3y ago
        I like the idea of unions but not in tech.. blah blah.. meritocracy.. yadda yadda.. I can't afford union fees on my 600k salary.. something something.
        sokoloff 3y ago
        I think for most it's not a matter of "can't afford", but rather closer to "don't think it's a use of money that will benefit me over the alternative." As a parallel: I can easily afford to buy a new car; I choose to buy used cars because it's a better use of money than the alternative. Many engineers are rational optimizers by nature.
        Draiken 3y ago
        I believe this discounts the very heavy anti-union propaganda that we've all been subject to since... forever. I'm not even from the US (I'm from Brazil) but here, similarly, most have a very bad view of unions, fueled by employers that, of course, don't want to give workers any power. It's always ironic when we see today's workers continuously losing rights that were achieved mostly through unions (with a fair share of blood) actively hate unions without ever truly looking into them. Smart people always assume they are immune to propaganda, and objectively investigating where those feelings come from is not something most take the time to do. Confirmation bias plays a big role here.
- chippiewill 3y ago
  Unfortunately like student unions they don't keep the focus on their actual remit and delving into irrelevant politics: https://palestine.utaw.tech/advocate/ https://palestine.utaw.tech/advocate/
  - steffandroid 3y ago
    Not irrelevant at all, military technology is a large part of the UK's tech sector, and arms exports to countries with poor human rights records are in the billions.
  - rakoo 3y ago
    That all depends what a union is about to you. To me, it is totally on-topic.
    - dablya 3y ago
      So... not really like having a lawyer on retainer?
      - rakoo 3y ago
        The point of a union, to me, is to get society to a point where you are in control of your life. You as an individual but also you as a group, regarding your origins, your gender, your sexual orientation, your skin color, or your place in the employer/employee relationship; in short, whenever you live a situation of oppression, be it small or large. Having a lawyer helps, because it helps you fight these attacks. But larger than that, changing the situation, the society, the relationships so that you do not undergo any oppression based on your situation. The goal, to me again, is to live in a more communal, solidarity-based environment. Telling about the genocide happening in Palestine because of their ethnicity, destroyed by their colonizer neighbor, and supporting them is totally on-topic.
dontlaugh 3y ago
And if you work in the games industry, there's https://www.gameworkers.co.uk/ https://www.gameworkers.co.uk/
Vinnl 3y ago
Anyone have any idea how this would/could work for a company with employees in many different countries? Especially if the number of employees in your own country is low? (Single or low double digits.)
- edent 3y ago
  Each country has its own unique employment laws. So you would need a different Union in each country. In the UK, for example, it doesn't matter how small your employer is - you still have the right to have your Trade Union representative with you in certain meetings.
  - Vinnl 3y ago
    Right, having someone in meetings is nice, but I'm thinking more in terms of collective bargaining, being involved in layoffs (e.g. making sure that every effort has been made to move/retrain people) and all that.
    - edent 3y ago
      Again, this will depend on the laws in your country. Speak to someone local to you.
    - dontlaugh 3y ago
      It's true that collective bargaining units will be per country, since legally the employer will have an entity in each country that is subject to local laws. In practice, unions have international links and often collaborate in the case of an action relevant to the same employer in multiple countries. The details are very much case-specific.
- diggan 3y ago
  > Anyone have any idea how this would/could work for a company with employees in many different countries? Technically, that company should have a subsidiary for each country they're employing people full-time in. So you'd work with the local union + local subsidiary, just like it was a local company.
qaq 3y ago
Well I worked in both EU(Ireland) and US for the same company on the same projects the comp difference is huge. So all the safety nets might buy you more peace of mind but pragmatically you are better off just having an extra rainy day fund from the portion of extra income you get in the US.
- estebank 3y ago
  This is true, but the number of "hidden" fees associated with living in the US make the difference slightly less stark than it seems at first, and a catastrophic health event can set you back to 0. The difference is biggest when working in tech, of course, and for the most part it is usually still worth it, depending on desired lifestyle.
  - gwright 3y ago
    I'm trying to understand what are the "hidden fees". Different fees, extra fees, annoying fees (when compared to some other country) I can wrap my head around those, but what fees are "hidden"?
- edent 3y ago
  If your comp was that much higher, surely a few bucks a month for Union membership would have been an incidental expense?
  - qaq 3y ago
    If I was sure it would not become just another layer of corporate bureaucracy one has to navigate sure. In my possibly biased experience the people climbing any type of power structure are same type personality wise be it union or corporation or goverment agency
evantbyrne 3y ago
How does joining a union prevent someone from being laid off after a merger? Unions have their place, but I'm skeptical that someone–especially a presumably high-paid employee–could collectively bargain their way out of a planned post-merger mass firing.
- edent 3y ago
  It doesn't prevent someone getting laid off. It makes sure that the process is fair and legal. It ensures that at-risk individuals have a chance to apply for available internal roles. A Union can use their legal powers to enforce proper compensation for an individual who is laid off and that remaining staff are protected. Your question is a bit like asking "how does insurance stop my house catching on fire?" - it doesn't; it makes sure you have some protection if the worst happens.
  - evantbyrne 3y ago
    The tradeoff is that people lose their ability to bargain individually, which is why you rarely see unionization of high-paid workers in the US. I think whether it makes sense for an individual to unionize really depends on their ability to negotiate. The more highly paid that a worker is and the more unique their role is, the less they have to gain from unionization vs looking at internal job postings and hiring an attorney as needed.
    - edent 3y ago
      It absolutely does not mean that. Unions help set minimum standards, not maximum ones. I've worked in private companies where the maximum comp is set by management and they do not allow individual negotiations. And I've worked in heavily unionised organisations where I was able to negotiate a better deal for myself. Do you really think your unique talents will save you from a lecherous boss or protect you from being discriminated against? And, if you wanted to sue, how much will an attorney's retainer cost? Hint - probably a lot more than you Union dues!
      - 3y ago

by edent 3y ago

pjmlp 3y ago

Germany, IG Metal and Verdi are active on IT field.

martinsnow 3y ago
Salaries in Germany are really low compared to Denmark and Norway.
- hulitu 3y ago
  And how is the cost of living ?
- pjmlp 3y ago
  I have done a quite decent life since 2004, can't complain.

maxehmookau 3y ago

Join. A. Union. https://utaw.tech/join/ https://utaw.tech/join/ also good. Think of it as having an employment lawyer on retainer for £8 a month. Well worth the money.

rakoo 3y ago
In IT we have it pretty easy and can rebound without as much hassle as other domains, so we think we're kinda safe. We're not. Join a union when things are good, to help you when things are bad.
- diggan 3y ago
  > In IT we have it pretty easy and can rebound without as much hassle as other domains, so we think we're kind safe. We're not. Seems even people in the US aren't actually that well off, as the author said they'd experience "acute financial stress" if it wasn't for the severance: > [...] and was told that the severance offered would give me at least a few months free from acute financial stress [...]
  - maxehmookau 3y ago
    Wait until America wakes up and reads this thread. The anti-union feeling over there is very peculiar to Europeans.
    - tjpnz 3y ago
      I like the idea of unions but not in tech.. blah blah.. meritocracy.. yadda yadda.. I can't afford union fees on my 600k salary.. something something.
      - sokoloff 3y ago
        I think for most it's not a matter of "can't afford", but rather closer to "don't think it's a use of money that will benefit me over the alternative." As a parallel: I can easily afford to buy a new car; I choose to buy used cars because it's a better use of money than the alternative. Many engineers are rational optimizers by nature.
        Draiken 3y ago
        I believe this discounts the very heavy anti-union propaganda that we've all been subject to since... forever. I'm not even from the US (I'm from Brazil) but here, similarly, most have a very bad view of unions, fueled by employers that, of course, don't want to give workers any power. It's always ironic when we see today's workers continuously losing rights that were achieved mostly through unions (with a fair share of blood) actively hate unions without ever truly looking into them. Smart people always assume they are immune to propaganda, and objectively investigating where those feelings come from is not something most take the time to do. Confirmation bias plays a big role here.
chippiewill 3y ago
Unfortunately like student unions they don't keep the focus on their actual remit and delving into irrelevant politics: https://palestine.utaw.tech/advocate/ https://palestine.utaw.tech/advocate/
- steffandroid 3y ago
  Not irrelevant at all, military technology is a large part of the UK's tech sector, and arms exports to countries with poor human rights records are in the billions.
- rakoo 3y ago
  That all depends what a union is about to you. To me, it is totally on-topic.
  - dablya 3y ago
    So... not really like having a lawyer on retainer?
    - rakoo 3y ago
      The point of a union, to me, is to get society to a point where you are in control of your life. You as an individual but also you as a group, regarding your origins, your gender, your sexual orientation, your skin color, or your place in the employer/employee relationship; in short, whenever you live a situation of oppression, be it small or large. Having a lawyer helps, because it helps you fight these attacks. But larger than that, changing the situation, the society, the relationships so that you do not undergo any oppression based on your situation. The goal, to me again, is to live in a more communal, solidarity-based environment. Telling about the genocide happening in Palestine because of their ethnicity, destroyed by their colonizer neighbor, and supporting them is totally on-topic.

dontlaugh 3y ago

And if you work in the games industry, there's https://www.gameworkers.co.uk/ https://www.gameworkers.co.uk/

Vinnl 3y ago

Anyone have any idea how this would/could work for a company with employees in many different countries? Especially if the number of employees in your own country is low? (Single or low double digits.)

edent 3y ago
Each country has its own unique employment laws. So you would need a different Union in each country. In the UK, for example, it doesn't matter how small your employer is - you still have the right to have your Trade Union representative with you in certain meetings.
- Vinnl 3y ago
  Right, having someone in meetings is nice, but I'm thinking more in terms of collective bargaining, being involved in layoffs (e.g. making sure that every effort has been made to move/retrain people) and all that.
  - edent 3y ago
    Again, this will depend on the laws in your country. Speak to someone local to you.
  - dontlaugh 3y ago
    It's true that collective bargaining units will be per country, since legally the employer will have an entity in each country that is subject to local laws. In practice, unions have international links and often collaborate in the case of an action relevant to the same employer in multiple countries. The details are very much case-specific.
diggan 3y ago
> Anyone have any idea how this would/could work for a company with employees in many different countries? Technically, that company should have a subsidiary for each country they're employing people full-time in. So you'd work with the local union + local subsidiary, just like it was a local company.

qaq 3y ago

Well I worked in both EU(Ireland) and US for the same company on the same projects the comp difference is huge. So all the safety nets might buy you more peace of mind but pragmatically you are better off just having an extra rainy day fund from the portion of extra income you get in the US.

estebank 3y ago
This is true, but the number of "hidden" fees associated with living in the US make the difference slightly less stark than it seems at first, and a catastrophic health event can set you back to 0. The difference is biggest when working in tech, of course, and for the most part it is usually still worth it, depending on desired lifestyle.
- gwright 3y ago
  I'm trying to understand what are the "hidden fees". Different fees, extra fees, annoying fees (when compared to some other country) I can wrap my head around those, but what fees are "hidden"?
edent 3y ago
If your comp was that much higher, surely a few bucks a month for Union membership would have been an incidental expense?
- qaq 3y ago
  If I was sure it would not become just another layer of corporate bureaucracy one has to navigate sure. In my possibly biased experience the people climbing any type of power structure are same type personality wise be it union or corporation or goverment agency

evantbyrne 3y ago

How does joining a union prevent someone from being laid off after a merger? Unions have their place, but I'm skeptical that someone–especially a presumably high-paid employee–could collectively bargain their way out of a planned post-merger mass firing.

edent 3y ago
It doesn't prevent someone getting laid off. It makes sure that the process is fair and legal. It ensures that at-risk individuals have a chance to apply for available internal roles. A Union can use their legal powers to enforce proper compensation for an individual who is laid off and that remaining staff are protected. Your question is a bit like asking "how does insurance stop my house catching on fire?" - it doesn't; it makes sure you have some protection if the worst happens.
- evantbyrne 3y ago
  The tradeoff is that people lose their ability to bargain individually, which is why you rarely see unionization of high-paid workers in the US. I think whether it makes sense for an individual to unionize really depends on their ability to negotiate. The more highly paid that a worker is and the more unique their role is, the less they have to gain from unionization vs looking at internal job postings and hiring an attorney as needed.
  - edent 3y ago
    It absolutely does not mean that. Unions help set minimum standards, not maximum ones. I've worked in private companies where the maximum comp is set by management and they do not allow individual negotiations. And I've worked in heavily unionised organisations where I was able to negotiate a better deal for myself. Do you really think your unique talents will save you from a lecherous boss or protect you from being discriminated against? And, if you wanted to sue, how much will an attorney's retainer cost? Hint - probably a lot more than you Union dues!
    - 3y ago