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You want to learn programming. Lets get started - how long does that take to bang out 10 exercises? Order the estimated results from quickest to slowest. Here's

by harry8 3y ago

You want to learn programming. Lets get started - how long does that take to bang out 10 exercises? Order the estimated results from quickest to slowest. Here's my estimates (don't like them, show yours! It'll be interesting): - Scratch - python/perl/ruby/javascript - C/Java - Swift/Rust - Anything else running on the jvm - - a whole lot of daylight - - common lisp. And many if not most will fail to get to the first exercise, those that do will start it well after all the rest have completed 10. Land of lisp seemed to be the best learn lisp book and it couldn't even manage to limit itself to one implementation of common lisp that you could use for the entire book. The situation is ridiculous.

richardgreeko27 3y ago
I think had I started with a lisp dialect like Racket and the book The Little Schemer, the speed of getting through those first exercises may have been just as fast or faster than the Ruby and JavaScript I started with. Lisps are hard to switch to but I disagree that they're hard to start with.
- harry8 3y ago
  Scheme is not common lisp. But you know where you place it on the list. I did sicp w/ racket, a 10 y.o. I know tried simply scheme w/ racket. I'd put it next to anything on the jvm (including clojure) myself. The 10 y.o. puts it way behind python & swift.
dadoum 3y ago
I am curious about the reason you put Swift so low in the list. Like to me it's as easy to output a program in Swift as it is to make one in JavaScript. (except if you count compile times, last time I used it I already thought they were way too slow)
- harry8 3y ago
  mac only. iirc you have to install xcode too. Compare to perl & python already installed on a mac and relatively easy to set up on windows. But I'd still call it very high on the list relative to common lisp, which is the point.
bsdpufferfish 3y ago
You’re biasing yourself to what you already (probably looks like C). There is nothing more difficult about some paren except you didn’t learn it first.
- harry8 3y ago
  Nup. Not the language. See how long it takes you to set up a Common Lisp implementation from scratch. Eg steel bank. Better yet, watch a kid try it on for size. Land of Lisp isn’t all bad but they can’t limit themselves to just one! Brackets are beside the point.
  - bsdpufferfish 3y ago
    apt install sbcl sbcl —script hello.lisp
    - harry8 3y ago
      Try it. Point someone at trying to learn programming at sbcl. What percentage do you think have any clue what you just wrote let alone run a debian based distro or even know what that is? Compare that experience to choosing python. Forget the actual language just all the overhead. It's not a close run thing no matter how angry common lispers get about it. This is my exact experience of common lisp. People aggressively pretend there's no problem other than other people are stupid and have broken minds because they didn't get functional early enough and so on. Land of Lisp at least tried, right? And did a vastly better job than anything else I've seen. Couldn't manage to do it all on sbcl though, huh? That's a shame, isn't it? Why do you think the best effort failed in something like that? https://nostarch.com/lisp.htm https://nostarch.com/lisp.htm
      - bsdpufferfish 3y ago
        I don't understand, is installing and running python easier than running an install command?
timbit42 3y ago
Interestingly, Scratch is based on Logo, which is based on Lisp, although that Lisp is older than Common Lisp, so that means a Lisp is at the top of your list. If you want a really nice language derived from Lisp, try REBOL or Red (derived from REBOL).

by harry8 3y ago

richardgreeko27 3y ago

I think had I started with a lisp dialect like Racket and the book The Little Schemer, the speed of getting through those first exercises may have been just as fast or faster than the Ruby and JavaScript I started with. Lisps are hard to switch to but I disagree that they're hard to start with.

harry8 3y ago
Scheme is not common lisp. But you know where you place it on the list. I did sicp w/ racket, a 10 y.o. I know tried simply scheme w/ racket. I'd put it next to anything on the jvm (including clojure) myself. The 10 y.o. puts it way behind python & swift.

dadoum 3y ago

I am curious about the reason you put Swift so low in the list. Like to me it's as easy to output a program in Swift as it is to make one in JavaScript. (except if you count compile times, last time I used it I already thought they were way too slow)

harry8 3y ago
mac only. iirc you have to install xcode too. Compare to perl & python already installed on a mac and relatively easy to set up on windows. But I'd still call it very high on the list relative to common lisp, which is the point.

bsdpufferfish 3y ago

You’re biasing yourself to what you already (probably looks like C). There is nothing more difficult about some paren except you didn’t learn it first.

harry8 3y ago
Nup. Not the language. See how long it takes you to set up a Common Lisp implementation from scratch. Eg steel bank. Better yet, watch a kid try it on for size. Land of Lisp isn’t all bad but they can’t limit themselves to just one! Brackets are beside the point.
- bsdpufferfish 3y ago
  apt install sbcl sbcl —script hello.lisp
  - harry8 3y ago
    Try it. Point someone at trying to learn programming at sbcl. What percentage do you think have any clue what you just wrote let alone run a debian based distro or even know what that is? Compare that experience to choosing python. Forget the actual language just all the overhead. It's not a close run thing no matter how angry common lispers get about it. This is my exact experience of common lisp. People aggressively pretend there's no problem other than other people are stupid and have broken minds because they didn't get functional early enough and so on. Land of Lisp at least tried, right? And did a vastly better job than anything else I've seen. Couldn't manage to do it all on sbcl though, huh? That's a shame, isn't it? Why do you think the best effort failed in something like that? https://nostarch.com/lisp.htm https://nostarch.com/lisp.htm
    - bsdpufferfish 3y ago
      I don't understand, is installing and running python easier than running an install command?

timbit42 3y ago

Interestingly, Scratch is based on Logo, which is based on Lisp, although that Lisp is older than Common Lisp, so that means a Lisp is at the top of your list. If you want a really nice language derived from Lisp, try REBOL or Red (derived from REBOL).