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> American parents on both sides of the political spectrum know this and are increasingly frustrated by how little they have been offered in this country—partic

> American parents on both sides of the political spectrum know this and are increasingly frustrated by how little they have been offered in this country—particularly in exchange for the high taxes they pay. How much taxes do Americans think we Europeans pay? Those dutch parents are paying close to 60-70% taxes once you account also for VAT

username135 3y ago
Source that please
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
jeffbee 3y ago
You must have assumed some level of income. How much?
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  The comparison is very difficult. Just incorporating health insurance premiums (even the portion that is employer paid) paid from pretax income plus some proportion of deductible/out of pocket maximum involves assumptions that change the calculations. Not to mention the myriad other ways to defer or exempt future income from taxes such as 401k/IRA/roth/529/HSA/etc. And then on top of that, you have 50 different states with myriad ways of taxing income, different types of income, consumption, and estates, and within those 50 states, there are numerous counties and cities with their own ways of taxing the same. For example, my effective individual tax rate at similar W2 incomes has varied from 30% to 17% (including health insurance premiums) just by changing the jurisdiction I live in. And that’s calculated using various assumptions one may or may not agree with.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    > The comparison is very difficult. Just incorporating health insurance premiums (even the portion that is employer paid) paid from pretax income plus some proportion of deductible/out of pocket maximum involves assumptions that change the calculations. I'm pretty sure the Netherlands has payroll taxes (employer paid) as well, so you would have to balance that assessment with what employers are paying.
LtWorf 3y ago
NL has comparatively low taxes for what they get. Their entire economy is based on scamming the other EU countries out of their company taxes, by letting companies open there, and then do transfer pricing. edit: downvoting me won't change how NL is ran.
- bigfudge 3y ago
  Ireland has a similar approach. It’s one of the few reasons why leaving the EU could have made sense.
- eeghyrdcg 3y ago
  I think calling it scamming is incorrect. They are competing — successfully!
  - LtWorf 3y ago
    They are using a loophole. And, have you ever met a Dutch person? Very often they will tell you within 3 minutes how much better they are than you, since they come from a country with such a good economy, unlike yours.
elevatedastalt 3y ago
In the asymptotic case, European countries levy 100% tax, and take over all economic and social activity, including child-rearing, with the role parents being only a field in the database.
- bigfudge 3y ago
  I can’t tell if this is satire or a genuine point being made. It’s a long way from reality if anyone was in any doubt!
  - genman 3y ago
    It looks like some political fringe theory talking point.
    - elevatedastalt 3y ago
      It was a slightly provocative statement said in satire to underscore the point that the right degree of taxation and social services to provide isn't a universal constant and we don't need to assume that the way European countries do is the only right. These things tend to have complex tradeoffs.
      - ajmurmann 3y ago
        You are right. According to the article it's only right if you prioritize child happiness
retrac 3y ago
> 60-70% taxes The highest Dutch tax bracket is 50%, but that only applies to income over 75K EUR. Also, VAT doesn't apply to rent, and it's reduced for food. Housing and food are most household's largest expenses. So the 21% sales tax can be deceptive. Taxation as a % of the Dutch GDP is 38%. That is to say, taxes take 38% of all the wealth produced in the Netherlands. For some comparison purposes, the number in the USA is 27%, Japan 31%, Canada 33%, Germany 37%, Finland 42%. The US does not have uniform tax rates. Taxation as a % of GDP in some of the higher-taxed US states comes in around 35% - quite close to the Dutch number. It would appear that the typical middle class Dutch family probably pays about 30 - 50% of their income to taxation. The very wealthy might be coming up on 60% or so.
- jdmoreira 3y ago
  > Taxation as a % of the Dutch GDP is 38% This is not necessarily a good metric for high income right? Companies pay less taxes for sure then a high earning couple.
- throwaway49849 3y ago
  For context, 75,518 EUR is $81,014. So if you're a software engineer making $200k, you're paying 37% on the first $81,014, or $30,000, and then 50% on the remaining $118,986, or $60,000. For a grand total of $90k on your $200k salary. Oof. In a modern society, with modern technology, why does the government demand ownership of 30-50% of the value that people generate? That's an enormous amount of free labor.
  - bojan 3y ago
    It's not a good example as almost no-one has a salary that high. For software engineers you're looking at say 90-100K as an average maximum, with vast majority earning less than that. Edit to cover your edit: it's certainly not free labour, I happily pay my taxes because I believe I'm getting quiet something in return.
    - pierat 3y ago
      If we're paying 'social democracy sized taxes', you damn straight I demand social democracy policies. But nope, we just get "sell more weapons to Israel and Ukraine", and more class warfare.
Symbiote 3y ago
The OECD puts it at around 35% for a single worker, and 30% for a one-earner married couple with two children. Even if they spend their entire income on taxable goods and services — which is very unlikely, as rent/mortgage doesn't have VAT — that would mean 21% of the remaining amount were taxed, so 55-50%. https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-netherlands.pdf https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-netherlands...
- jdmoreira 3y ago
  Then they have much less taxation then I thought. I based it on my Swedish and Portuguese experiences. Thought NL was similar I also wasn't making the case for the average worker. Was assuming higher earners then the norm since that's the whole vibe of the article
bitwize 3y ago
[flagged]
alistairSH 3y ago
For reference, total tax revenue (at all levels) is around 25% in the US. Compared to around 37% in the Netherlands and 33% across OECD. By this metric, the US has the 4th lowest overall tax rates in the OECD (above only Mexico, Ireland, and Chile). https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes-compare-internationally https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxe...

username135 3y ago

Source that please

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

jeffbee 3y ago

You must have assumed some level of income. How much?

lotsofpulp 3y ago
The comparison is very difficult. Just incorporating health insurance premiums (even the portion that is employer paid) paid from pretax income plus some proportion of deductible/out of pocket maximum involves assumptions that change the calculations. Not to mention the myriad other ways to defer or exempt future income from taxes such as 401k/IRA/roth/529/HSA/etc. And then on top of that, you have 50 different states with myriad ways of taxing income, different types of income, consumption, and estates, and within those 50 states, there are numerous counties and cities with their own ways of taxing the same. For example, my effective individual tax rate at similar W2 incomes has varied from 30% to 17% (including health insurance premiums) just by changing the jurisdiction I live in. And that’s calculated using various assumptions one may or may not agree with.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  > The comparison is very difficult. Just incorporating health insurance premiums (even the portion that is employer paid) paid from pretax income plus some proportion of deductible/out of pocket maximum involves assumptions that change the calculations. I'm pretty sure the Netherlands has payroll taxes (employer paid) as well, so you would have to balance that assessment with what employers are paying.

LtWorf 3y ago

NL has comparatively low taxes for what they get. Their entire economy is based on scamming the other EU countries out of their company taxes, by letting companies open there, and then do transfer pricing. edit: downvoting me won't change how NL is ran.

bigfudge 3y ago
Ireland has a similar approach. It’s one of the few reasons why leaving the EU could have made sense.
eeghyrdcg 3y ago
I think calling it scamming is incorrect. They are competing — successfully!
- LtWorf 3y ago
  They are using a loophole. And, have you ever met a Dutch person? Very often they will tell you within 3 minutes how much better they are than you, since they come from a country with such a good economy, unlike yours.

elevatedastalt 3y ago

In the asymptotic case, European countries levy 100% tax, and take over all economic and social activity, including child-rearing, with the role parents being only a field in the database.

bigfudge 3y ago
I can’t tell if this is satire or a genuine point being made. It’s a long way from reality if anyone was in any doubt!
- genman 3y ago
  It looks like some political fringe theory talking point.
  - elevatedastalt 3y ago
    It was a slightly provocative statement said in satire to underscore the point that the right degree of taxation and social services to provide isn't a universal constant and we don't need to assume that the way European countries do is the only right. These things tend to have complex tradeoffs.
    - ajmurmann 3y ago
      You are right. According to the article it's only right if you prioritize child happiness

retrac 3y ago

> 60-70% taxes The highest Dutch tax bracket is 50%, but that only applies to income over 75K EUR. Also, VAT doesn't apply to rent, and it's reduced for food. Housing and food are most household's largest expenses. So the 21% sales tax can be deceptive. Taxation as a % of the Dutch GDP is 38%. That is to say, taxes take 38% of all the wealth produced in the Netherlands. For some comparison purposes, the number in the USA is 27%, Japan 31%, Canada 33%, Germany 37%, Finland 42%. The US does not have uniform tax rates. Taxation as a % of GDP in some of the higher-taxed US states comes in around 35% - quite close to the Dutch number. It would appear that the typical middle class Dutch family probably pays about 30 - 50% of their income to taxation. The very wealthy might be coming up on 60% or so.

jdmoreira 3y ago
> Taxation as a % of the Dutch GDP is 38% This is not necessarily a good metric for high income right? Companies pay less taxes for sure then a high earning couple.
throwaway49849 3y ago
For context, 75,518 EUR is $81,014. So if you're a software engineer making $200k, you're paying 37% on the first $81,014, or $30,000, and then 50% on the remaining $118,986, or $60,000. For a grand total of $90k on your $200k salary. Oof. In a modern society, with modern technology, why does the government demand ownership of 30-50% of the value that people generate? That's an enormous amount of free labor.
- bojan 3y ago
  It's not a good example as almost no-one has a salary that high. For software engineers you're looking at say 90-100K as an average maximum, with vast majority earning less than that. Edit to cover your edit: it's certainly not free labour, I happily pay my taxes because I believe I'm getting quiet something in return.
  - pierat 3y ago
    If we're paying 'social democracy sized taxes', you damn straight I demand social democracy policies. But nope, we just get "sell more weapons to Israel and Ukraine", and more class warfare.

Symbiote 3y ago

The OECD puts it at around 35% for a single worker, and 30% for a one-earner married couple with two children. Even if they spend their entire income on taxable goods and services — which is very unlikely, as rent/mortgage doesn't have VAT — that would mean 21% of the remaining amount were taxed, so 55-50%. https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-netherlands.pdf https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-netherlands...

jdmoreira 3y ago
Then they have much less taxation then I thought. I based it on my Swedish and Portuguese experiences. Thought NL was similar I also wasn't making the case for the average worker. Was assuming higher earners then the norm since that's the whole vibe of the article

bitwize 3y ago

[flagged]

alistairSH 3y ago

For reference, total tax revenue (at all levels) is around 25% in the US. Compared to around 37% in the Netherlands and 33% across OECD. By this metric, the US has the 4th lowest overall tax rates in the OECD (above only Mexico, Ireland, and Chile). https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes-compare-internationally https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxe...