3 ms·

>Leases are often indefinite How common is that today? In Austria most landlords stopped offering indefinite leases a long time ago, and are instead renewed ev

>Leases are often indefinite How common is that today? In Austria most landlords stopped offering indefinite leases a long time ago, and are instead renewed every 3 years or so when they can increase your rent or kick you out. Or if you have an indefinite lease it's automatically indexed by inflation which screws you big time if your wages aren't keeping up. The only indefinite lease currently in existence without inflation indexing are very old contracts who got grandfathered in but no landlord is crazy to offer that today anymore.

whstl 3y ago
I don't think this is common in Berlin anymore. My last 3 leases had a limit of 3 years. My friends are all in similar situations. It is not difficult to renew, though, but there will be a price adjustment. I eventually caved and bought an apartment.
ManBeardPc 3y ago
In my experience indefinite is pretty much the default here in Germany. I only heard about limited leases for students that only move to a certain location because of university.
- sumuyuda 3y ago
  A fixed term lease in Germany is only legal in some narrow circumstances and can’t be renewed multiple times in a row. I think after a few years the landlord has to offer you an unlimited lease.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Are German leases indexed to inflation at least?
    - ManBeardPc 3y ago
      Haven't met anyone which such a contract. It's usually a fixed value. The owner may choose to raise it every now and then, but laws limit it to a certain amount per year and there needs to be a reason, for example modernization or other buildings in the area are becoming more expensive. You can of course make a contract that allows for automatic raises, but that is also limited (earliest 12 month after the begin of the lease, only a fixed/absolute value and not percentage) and you can no longer raise the price for the other reasons. There are probably other models, but I don't know much about them.
ce4 3y ago
Indexed and contracts with stepped rent are also a thing here, especially for sought-after zones/cities. I e.g. avoid those if possible and we've moved out of an (inflation) indexed lease contract recently. Now back to just a regular (non-stepped/indexes) indefinite contract as usual. As to why we dont buy: We like the flexibility and also property prices here make it hard to get sth. decent in comparison to renting.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  In which country?
KingOfCoders 3y ago
Every flat I've rented in Germany had indefinite leases in the last 30 years. Also didn't have inflation linked leases.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  So you can live somewhere for 30 years while still paying the exact same rent from 30 years ago unadjusted for inflation? How does that work for landlords?
  - KingOfCoders 3y ago
    "exact same rent from 30 years ago unadjusted" Straw man attack, I didn't say that. Nevertheless I'll give you an answer. I had below inflation rent increase for some decades, yes. I also payed below market prices for some decades. The last flat we rented was 110qm, Prenzlauer Berg, 950EUR/month, market rate approx. 1800 EUR/month. I do think the property ownership monetary model is more complicated than you suggest.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      >Straw man attack, I didn't say that. I wasn't attacking you, I was asking the the rental model makes sense for the landlord if he can't increase rent prices. >I do think the property ownership monetary model is more complicated than you suggest. I wasn't suggesting anyhting, I was asking. >Nevertheless I'll give you an answer. But from what I understand, you haven't explained. You've only said you were paying below market rate, But how does that work then?
    - abenga 3y ago
      I always assume that once you're in, it's hard to push you out or increase rent unreasonably. How close to market rate was the flat priced when you moved in?
  - Arnt 3y ago
    They have another kind of adjustment, indirectly linked to inflation. The details are complicated, Germans will accept very complex rules as long as the goal is seen as just, but if you want it simplified to just one sentence: If you're paying a very low price, the landlord can usually increase it slowly until it's fair for the property. If the market price climbs past the rent you're paying, you'll begin to see some rent increases.
soco 3y ago
I always hat unlimited leases in Switzerland, also never heard around me about limited ones. So if there's a trend, it hasn't reached here yet. Yes it happened once that we were terminated when the owners died and the new ones wanted to rebuild - but the heads-up we got was one year.

whstl 3y ago

I don't think this is common in Berlin anymore. My last 3 leases had a limit of 3 years. My friends are all in similar situations. It is not difficult to renew, though, but there will be a price adjustment. I eventually caved and bought an apartment.

ManBeardPc 3y ago

In my experience indefinite is pretty much the default here in Germany. I only heard about limited leases for students that only move to a certain location because of university.

sumuyuda 3y ago
A fixed term lease in Germany is only legal in some narrow circumstances and can’t be renewed multiple times in a row. I think after a few years the landlord has to offer you an unlimited lease.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Are German leases indexed to inflation at least?
  - ManBeardPc 3y ago
    Haven't met anyone which such a contract. It's usually a fixed value. The owner may choose to raise it every now and then, but laws limit it to a certain amount per year and there needs to be a reason, for example modernization or other buildings in the area are becoming more expensive. You can of course make a contract that allows for automatic raises, but that is also limited (earliest 12 month after the begin of the lease, only a fixed/absolute value and not percentage) and you can no longer raise the price for the other reasons. There are probably other models, but I don't know much about them.

ce4 3y ago

Indexed and contracts with stepped rent are also a thing here, especially for sought-after zones/cities. I e.g. avoid those if possible and we've moved out of an (inflation) indexed lease contract recently. Now back to just a regular (non-stepped/indexes) indefinite contract as usual. As to why we dont buy: We like the flexibility and also property prices here make it hard to get sth. decent in comparison to renting.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
In which country?

KingOfCoders 3y ago

Every flat I've rented in Germany had indefinite leases in the last 30 years. Also didn't have inflation linked leases.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
So you can live somewhere for 30 years while still paying the exact same rent from 30 years ago unadjusted for inflation? How does that work for landlords?
- KingOfCoders 3y ago
  "exact same rent from 30 years ago unadjusted" Straw man attack, I didn't say that. Nevertheless I'll give you an answer. I had below inflation rent increase for some decades, yes. I also payed below market prices for some decades. The last flat we rented was 110qm, Prenzlauer Berg, 950EUR/month, market rate approx. 1800 EUR/month. I do think the property ownership monetary model is more complicated than you suggest.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >Straw man attack, I didn't say that. I wasn't attacking you, I was asking the the rental model makes sense for the landlord if he can't increase rent prices. >I do think the property ownership monetary model is more complicated than you suggest. I wasn't suggesting anyhting, I was asking. >Nevertheless I'll give you an answer. But from what I understand, you haven't explained. You've only said you were paying below market rate, But how does that work then?
  - abenga 3y ago
    I always assume that once you're in, it's hard to push you out or increase rent unreasonably. How close to market rate was the flat priced when you moved in?
- Arnt 3y ago
  They have another kind of adjustment, indirectly linked to inflation. The details are complicated, Germans will accept very complex rules as long as the goal is seen as just, but if you want it simplified to just one sentence: If you're paying a very low price, the landlord can usually increase it slowly until it's fair for the property. If the market price climbs past the rent you're paying, you'll begin to see some rent increases.

soco 3y ago

I always hat unlimited leases in Switzerland, also never heard around me about limited ones. So if there's a trend, it hasn't reached here yet. Yes it happened once that we were terminated when the owners died and the new ones wanted to rebuild - but the heads-up we got was one year.