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While it's never fun to receive negative feedback, it'll only help to improve the product. Still, I run Matrix servers since inception of the project (10 years

While it's never fun to receive negative feedback, it'll only help to improve the product. Still, I run Matrix servers since inception of the project (10 years now \o/), and for an experienced system administrator this is not something difficult to do. If you think running a Matrix server is difficult, you are probably not the intended audience: running an IRC server, an email server, or some other server, is mostly similarly difficult. Matrix is a communication protocol, and it is not intended to be touched by end-users. If your goal is to just communicate on the matrix network as an enduser, stay away from matrix. I haven't seen an email enduser who browsers to https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5321.html https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5321.html, to figure out how to sign up for hotmail..... Element on the other hand, IS intended to be userfriendly, and there is obviously a lot of room for improvement. But through the years I experienced that users who want to use Element to stay in touch with their loved once, have no problem with that. Lastly I think comparing an open source project like Matrix/Element to Publicly traded corporations like Slack or Meta, is not fair. They operate with totally different business models. If you'd compare the quality of Matrix/Element to Slack in relation to annual budget, Slacks ROI would be depressing.

solarkraft 3y ago
> Lastly I think comparing an open source project like Matrix/Element to Publicly traded corporations like Slack or Meta, is not fair. If we want to "win" (reach similar/higher adoption), we need to at least come close. It's not easy work, but not doing it and leaving the product that so much good work has ready gone into unusable for a vast number of people would be a bummer.
- influencer3000 3y ago
  Not sure we want to "win". If endusers want apps "to just work" without "paying up", then I would recommend them to stay with Whatsapp. That kind of users aren't worth the hassle if they have no money. I personally have better relationships with people that enjoy learning something new, and coming up with solutions for issues themselves, eventually contributing to the ecosystem.
  - IanCal 3y ago
    > I personally have better relationships with people that enjoy learning something new, and coming up with solutions for issues themselves, eventually contributing to the ecosystem. Then we should add deliberate errors in the signup process and encourage the community not to talk about them so there's a definite right of passage. > I personally have better relationships with people that enjoy learning something new, Here's another perspective. I love learning new things. But this is making me learn the internal product releases of a chat app rather than, say, what the different lions represent in the dance I watched on Chinese new year. Or worse, you're making me learn what the split is between matrix the spec, matrix the hosted server, the matrix foundation, element the business, element the hosted service, element the app and the other element the app - rather than pretend to be an imaginary creature called a meep with my daughter.
  - dale_glass 3y ago
    I'm very sympathetic to this line of thought in general, being in a similar position with our own project. But it's still important not to make people waste their time. End users should be sent to an end-user friendly place, and developers should be quickly sent off to usable development documentation. It doesn't help anyone to confuse people and have them figure out the details of the internal organization and convoluted relationships between various pieces before they can even start doing work.
  - maxgashkov 3y ago
    Oh wow, since when there is an option to "pay up" into the Matrix ecosystem and get a solution that just works? Could you point to it?
nottorp 3y ago
> Matrix is a communication protocol, and it is not intended to be touched by end-users. So what is "intended to be touched by end users"? I can't figure that out either from the article or the comments here. Assume I can (and actually have) run an irc server, but I haven't set up Matrix for the last 10 years.
- raziel2p 3y ago
  The end user is meant to use 1) A client (e.g. Element), and 2) an account created on some server - with the client connecting to that server.
  - nottorp 3y ago
    Yep, that's in all caps on the landing page of matrix.org :) Oh wait, they say "An open network for secure, decentralised communication" instead.
Liskni_si 3y ago
> If you think running a Matrix server is difficult, you are probably not the intended audience: running an IRC server, an email server, or some other server, is mostly similarly difficult. Running an IRC server is absolutely not as difficult as running a Matrix server. There is no state, so you can literally build a tiny Docker image with the config baked in, run it on a VM with the specs of a cheap computer from the 1990s, and then forget about it for years. If it gets hacked (which I think isn't super likely as it's a small codebase that's been out there for decades), you build a new image with a more recent version of ircd.

solarkraft 3y ago

> Lastly I think comparing an open source project like Matrix/Element to Publicly traded corporations like Slack or Meta, is not fair. If we want to "win" (reach similar/higher adoption), we need to at least come close. It's not easy work, but not doing it and leaving the product that so much good work has ready gone into unusable for a vast number of people would be a bummer.

influencer3000 3y ago
Not sure we want to "win". If endusers want apps "to just work" without "paying up", then I would recommend them to stay with Whatsapp. That kind of users aren't worth the hassle if they have no money. I personally have better relationships with people that enjoy learning something new, and coming up with solutions for issues themselves, eventually contributing to the ecosystem.
- IanCal 3y ago
  > I personally have better relationships with people that enjoy learning something new, and coming up with solutions for issues themselves, eventually contributing to the ecosystem. Then we should add deliberate errors in the signup process and encourage the community not to talk about them so there's a definite right of passage. > I personally have better relationships with people that enjoy learning something new, Here's another perspective. I love learning new things. But this is making me learn the internal product releases of a chat app rather than, say, what the different lions represent in the dance I watched on Chinese new year. Or worse, you're making me learn what the split is between matrix the spec, matrix the hosted server, the matrix foundation, element the business, element the hosted service, element the app and the other element the app - rather than pretend to be an imaginary creature called a meep with my daughter.
- dale_glass 3y ago
  I'm very sympathetic to this line of thought in general, being in a similar position with our own project. But it's still important not to make people waste their time. End users should be sent to an end-user friendly place, and developers should be quickly sent off to usable development documentation. It doesn't help anyone to confuse people and have them figure out the details of the internal organization and convoluted relationships between various pieces before they can even start doing work.
- maxgashkov 3y ago
  Oh wow, since when there is an option to "pay up" into the Matrix ecosystem and get a solution that just works? Could you point to it?

nottorp 3y ago

> Matrix is a communication protocol, and it is not intended to be touched by end-users. So what is "intended to be touched by end users"? I can't figure that out either from the article or the comments here. Assume I can (and actually have) run an irc server, but I haven't set up Matrix for the last 10 years.

raziel2p 3y ago
The end user is meant to use 1) A client (e.g. Element), and 2) an account created on some server - with the client connecting to that server.
- nottorp 3y ago
  Yep, that's in all caps on the landing page of matrix.org :) Oh wait, they say "An open network for secure, decentralised communication" instead.

Liskni_si 3y ago

> If you think running a Matrix server is difficult, you are probably not the intended audience: running an IRC server, an email server, or some other server, is mostly similarly difficult. Running an IRC server is absolutely not as difficult as running a Matrix server. There is no state, so you can literally build a tiny Docker image with the config baked in, run it on a VM with the specs of a cheap computer from the 1990s, and then forget about it for years. If it gets hacked (which I think isn't super likely as it's a small codebase that's been out there for decades), you build a new image with a more recent version of ircd.