4 ms·

Committed relationships found by judging other people's personality and looks are completely unnatural for human beings, and a result of conditioning by society

by devit 3y ago

Committed relationships found by judging other people's personality and looks are completely unnatural for human beings, and a result of conditioning by society. The natural state is living immersed in a place where other beings are and spontaneously interacting with them without a developed ego/personality filtering the interaction, as the closest relatives to human (chimpanzees and bonobos) do. This makes the socially-conditioned relationship model very unstable, since such a relationship will only work if, as long as and to the extent that the conditioned beliefs happen to match the other person and their beliefs. Since the conditioned beliefs are fundamentally false (because they are of the form "you will be happy if X" but happiness is actually the absence of any such belief) they are unstable and they will mutate once their falsehood is partially realized, and this process, along with viral cultural propagation, also creates many different conditioned mindsets that make matching and intimacy very challenging. So the problems with dating apps are just a very specific effect of what is the fundamental nature of human beings and reality.

seydor 3y ago
the natural state is not the civilized one.
- mensetmanusman 3y ago
  Humans are the universe, everything humans do is natural.
  - echoangle 3y ago
    Only if you assume a useless definition of natural. By your definition, everything would be natural, right? Can you give an example for something thats not natural?
    - alickz 3y ago
      Non-natural numbers?
  - BadHumans 3y ago
    Very self centered way of looking at the world.
    - kelseyfrog 3y ago
      I personally think that reifying social norms is self-centered, but good luck ever trying to convince someone they're doing that.
    - Der_Einzige 3y ago
      Fine tuned universe theory is just cosmic narcissism
  - lazide 3y ago
    Finally I can label that Hydrogen bomb I’ve been working on in my basement ‘organic’. Thanks!
    - kmstout 3y ago
      Got carbon?
      - lazide 3y ago
        Pure, uncut Fogbank all the way baby. Look at all that C in those styrene chains! Organic all the way.
krisoft 3y ago
> spontaneously interacting with them without a developed ego/personality filtering the interaction Is a "developed ego/personality filtering the interaction" the same as having a personality? Why do you think that is not natural? > as the closest relatives to human (chimpanzees and bonobos) do How do you know that chimpanze and bonobo interactions are not "filtered by developed ego/personality"?
ravenstine 3y ago
The tech is superficially premised on the idea that humans will behave the same in captivity. Necessity and familiarity are critical variables in the right environment for pair bonding that can't be replicated through technology that exists to undermine those two things. Technology solves the necessity of people to depend on one another or invest their time in interpersonal experiences; it's easier than ever to shut the world out and not worry about survival. It also allows people to be distant while creating the illusion of connectedness, and people are going to be much less likely to invest in new relationships in that case. Take those things away and all you have is the primitive instinct to act on, which is what today's dating apps are specifically tuned to. If you want more than that, it's almost too bad, because opportunities for the sexes to engage in meaningful shared experiences are few and far between today. You're lucky if you see the same person more than once at a coffee shop. Go to a night club today, and chances are it will be predominantly full of people who for some reason aren't actually interested in having fun or giving anyone a chance outside of their clique. Workplaces are not only far more remote-oriented today but are less hospitable to relationships among coworkers than ever. Meetups are basically a joke now, and let's not even get into the bar. Younger generations are correct in getting out of the dating app game, even if perhaps it will take a while for people to actually return to meatspace for dating, by and large. It's said that it's better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all, but Alfred Lord Tennyson never used a dating app.
- nonrandomstring 3y ago
  > It's said that it's better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all, but Alfred Lord Tennyson never used a dating app. Oh you beaut! I may have to steal that. :)
notfed 3y ago
> Committed relationships found by judging other people's personality and looks are completely unnatural for human beings Citation? This is an extraordinary claim.
- user_7832 3y ago
  I think a better way to rephrase this is "judging 10s/100s of people in a few minutes, at days on end." Judging people for looks isn't new, but being picky is easier if there are 1000 options easily available. In pre-internet times there was a much harder limit on how many people you could choose from. Btw tangentially related is the secretary problem - trying to select how many people to reject before selecting the statistically best choice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_problem).
dkarras 3y ago
>Committed relationships found by judging other people's personality and looks are completely unnatural for human beings, and a result of conditioning by society. Humans developed culture and language. It is in our genes, how our brains evolved. Whatever we are doing right now is our natural state. Society, likewise, consists of other humans, and whatever conditioning they exert is also part of human nature, specifically of humans in large groups. Whatever social conditioning you are thinking of was not brought upon us by aliens.
gklitz 3y ago
You communicating this message by inputting a string of individual characters on an electronic device completely unnatural. So what?
staticman2 3y ago
"Committed relationships found by judging other people's personality and looks are completely unnatural for human beings, and a result of conditioning by society." Evolutionary psychiatrists would not agree. They would argue there's practical reasons that we would evolve to judge others. For example a woman judges a man to guess if he'll have a wandering eye or lack of loyalty and abandon their kids. A man judges a woman to guess if she'll have a wandering eye and trick him into raising another man's children (Since in a natural environment men have no way to know they are the father.)

by devit 3y ago

seydor 3y ago

the natural state is not the civilized one.

mensetmanusman 3y ago
Humans are the universe, everything humans do is natural.
- echoangle 3y ago
  Only if you assume a useless definition of natural. By your definition, everything would be natural, right? Can you give an example for something thats not natural?
  - alickz 3y ago
    Non-natural numbers?
- BadHumans 3y ago
  Very self centered way of looking at the world.
  - kelseyfrog 3y ago
    I personally think that reifying social norms is self-centered, but good luck ever trying to convince someone they're doing that.
  - Der_Einzige 3y ago
    Fine tuned universe theory is just cosmic narcissism
- lazide 3y ago
  Finally I can label that Hydrogen bomb I’ve been working on in my basement ‘organic’. Thanks!
  - kmstout 3y ago
    Got carbon?
    - lazide 3y ago
      Pure, uncut Fogbank all the way baby. Look at all that C in those styrene chains! Organic all the way.

krisoft 3y ago

> spontaneously interacting with them without a developed ego/personality filtering the interaction Is a "developed ego/personality filtering the interaction" the same as having a personality? Why do you think that is not natural? > as the closest relatives to human (chimpanzees and bonobos) do How do you know that chimpanze and bonobo interactions are not "filtered by developed ego/personality"?

ravenstine 3y ago

The tech is superficially premised on the idea that humans will behave the same in captivity. Necessity and familiarity are critical variables in the right environment for pair bonding that can't be replicated through technology that exists to undermine those two things. Technology solves the necessity of people to depend on one another or invest their time in interpersonal experiences; it's easier than ever to shut the world out and not worry about survival. It also allows people to be distant while creating the illusion of connectedness, and people are going to be much less likely to invest in new relationships in that case. Take those things away and all you have is the primitive instinct to act on, which is what today's dating apps are specifically tuned to. If you want more than that, it's almost too bad, because opportunities for the sexes to engage in meaningful shared experiences are few and far between today. You're lucky if you see the same person more than once at a coffee shop. Go to a night club today, and chances are it will be predominantly full of people who for some reason aren't actually interested in having fun or giving anyone a chance outside of their clique. Workplaces are not only far more remote-oriented today but are less hospitable to relationships among coworkers than ever. Meetups are basically a joke now, and let's not even get into the bar. Younger generations are correct in getting out of the dating app game, even if perhaps it will take a while for people to actually return to meatspace for dating, by and large. It's said that it's better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all, but Alfred Lord Tennyson never used a dating app.

nonrandomstring 3y ago
> It's said that it's better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all, but Alfred Lord Tennyson never used a dating app. Oh you beaut! I may have to steal that. :)

notfed 3y ago

> Committed relationships found by judging other people's personality and looks are completely unnatural for human beings Citation? This is an extraordinary claim.

user_7832 3y ago
I think a better way to rephrase this is "judging 10s/100s of people in a few minutes, at days on end." Judging people for looks isn't new, but being picky is easier if there are 1000 options easily available. In pre-internet times there was a much harder limit on how many people you could choose from. Btw tangentially related is the secretary problem - trying to select how many people to reject before selecting the statistically best choice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_problem).

dkarras 3y ago

>Committed relationships found by judging other people's personality and looks are completely unnatural for human beings, and a result of conditioning by society. Humans developed culture and language. It is in our genes, how our brains evolved. Whatever we are doing right now is our natural state. Society, likewise, consists of other humans, and whatever conditioning they exert is also part of human nature, specifically of humans in large groups. Whatever social conditioning you are thinking of was not brought upon us by aliens.

gklitz 3y ago

You communicating this message by inputting a string of individual characters on an electronic device completely unnatural. So what?

staticman2 3y ago

"Committed relationships found by judging other people's personality and looks are completely unnatural for human beings, and a result of conditioning by society." Evolutionary psychiatrists would not agree. They would argue there's practical reasons that we would evolve to judge others. For example a woman judges a man to guess if he'll have a wandering eye or lack of loyalty and abandon their kids. A man judges a woman to guess if she'll have a wandering eye and trick him into raising another man's children (Since in a natural environment men have no way to know they are the father.)