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Some car brands sell vehicles that open with a button push on the door, if the key is just nearby. Standard kit now is you get an RF extender that bridges the

Some car brands sell vehicles that open with a button push on the door, if the key is just nearby. Standard kit now is you get an RF extender that bridges the distance from a key inside someone’s house to the car; then the car just lets you open it and drive it away. Much faster and simpler than the old slim Jim ways!

ianschmitz 3y ago
The key needs to be continuously present for the car to continue running. Unless I’m missing something in your story?
- instaclay 3y ago
  I have a push-button car made by Hyundai and one made by Nissan. Both can be turned on with the fob inside the vehicle. You can then leave the key behind and drive away. The dashboard will immediately warn you that a key is not present (audio and visual icons), but both cars will not do anything to immobilize the car after the key has been left.
- scintill76 3y ago
  AFAIK my '07 Mazda can drive away without the wireless key. It beeps to warn you when the key is getting out of range.
- adolph 3y ago
  Signal from the key just needed to start, not a keep-alive. Might depend on make/model. Chances are good an automaker doesn't want to shut off a car at speed just because the key misses a keep-alive ping. The device is actually two sets of equipment. When the unsuspecting victim parks and locks the car, a thief standing not far away holds the first device, which is used to pick up and amplify the electronic signal as it is sent between the car and the key fob. That signal is relayed to a second device, which tricks the car into thinking that the key fob is near the car. That disarms the security system, unlocks the door and authenticates the engine to start. https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-mystery-car-stealing-device-20161207-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-mystery-car-steali...
- thepasswordis 3y ago
  Not true for any car I’ve ever seen. once it’s started and in drive the key isn’t needed.
  - lokar 3y ago
    Mine works this way, you get a warning that it’s going to shutdown in a few min without the key.
- kube-system 3y ago
  I don't think any car keyless ignition requires the key to be present to continue running. You don't want a car to shut off on the highway if someone drops the key behind a metal object or the battery dies. If you start a car, and then take the key out of the vehicle, you will get a message like this: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Jo6gzVfAElc/maxresdefault.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Jo6gzVfAElc/maxresdefault.jpg You will be able to drive the vehicle until it is put into park or shut off, and you won't be able to drive it again until the key is present again. This has stranded some people who have done the following: * start the car * get out for some reason * leave the key by accident * get back in the car and drive away * park at their destination * they are now stranded without a key
  - NoPedantsThanks 3y ago
    Even more surprising: fobs that don't work if the key is in the ignition. My 1996 Mustang had a bad battery, so it would barely start. I took the remote fob off the key ring and left the car running, but locked it (using the physical door-lock button). When I came back later, the fob would not open the door. WTF? Had to have another key brought from home. Another good one: If you open the back door of a Mini Clubman (or the regular Cooper, most likely) and then accidentally drop your fob into the car and close the rear doors or hatch... the car will re-lock itself and you're fucked. This is great when it's a hot day and you just put a dog in the car, which is in the sun. Now you get to break a window. Yay German engineering.
  - babypuncher 3y ago
    My car beeps whenever the key is not detected in the cabin while the vehicle is running. It would be very hard to leave the key behind by accident.
    - kube-system 3y ago
      My experience is the same. I suspect one would have to really not pay attention to manage to do this. e.g: stereo up, car already dinging for other reasons, absent minded driver, etc.
- jakewins 3y ago
  What model vehicle stalls if it can't find the key? That seems like a severe safety problem - you mean it would brake if the battery dies on the key dongle? At least in the two Hyundai's I've owned with this type of system - an Ioniq hybrid and a Kona EV - it drives just fine once started even if you chuck the key out the window.
  - thesuitonym 3y ago
    The car turning off is not at all the same as braking. It actually seems LESS safe to me to allow the car to move far beyond the key, because leaving the key behind (Thus stranding yourself) is more likely to occur than the battery dying.
- dylan604 3y ago
  My first experience with owning a car that had the wireless key surprised me. I had a Toyota Tacoma that needed to be moved. Someone more freely available jumped in and was able to start it because I was fairly close. They drove around the block well out of range and it never stopped running. This was surprising to me. In a previous car, I had a remote start that would specifically kill the engine if you pressed the brake without the key in the right position. So the stopping the engine was something that I just assumed would happen as well. Unless there's a concern about just having the engine stop while actively being driven???
  - froggit 3y ago
    > Unless there's a concern about just having the engine stop while actively being driven??? The majority of cars depend on the engine to provide power assist on the brakes and steering. Without power assist the physical effort required to stop and steer goes up significantly. Suddenly having the control dynamics of a multi-ton chunk of metal change dramatically while at speed isn't something most people are capable of responding to correctly. Having the engine stop in the middle of a busy intersection is another way to have a bad time. > I had a remote start that would specifically kill the engine if you pressed the brake without the key in the right position. Being able to start the car remotely and being able to put the car in gear and drive without the key in the ignition are independent features.
- WirelessGigabit 3y ago
  Sadly no. I've driven to a place with my wife, and then she drove off, with me having the keys in my pocket. It'll keep running. Can you imagine if it stops detecting the keys because the coin-battery is dead and the car all of the sudden stalls? Only when you stop the car and then try to start it you'll notice.
corytheboyd 3y ago
Damn that is clever, and something I hadn’t even thought of before. Plenty of people get home and throw their keys by the door, this would absolutely work with a range extender. Does anyone know why keyless became the norm? Cheaper to manufacture than physical keys with electronic security features?
- jakewins 3y ago
  My understanding is this is rapidly being replaced by NFC phone tapping, at least that's what Hyundai is swapping to. Annoying though, I've really enjoyed not having to dig through pockets to open the car :(
  - corytheboyd 3y ago
    Damn, that sounds so much worse. My Tacoma already has keyless for me to worry about, but at least that doesn’t require an internet connection. I know that NFC itself does not require an internet connection, but the whole point of requiring a smartphone at all here is to have an app that millions of people MUST install, to collect data to sell. I won’t at all be surprised when they arbitrarily lock NFC keyless behind a required internet connection. I’m tired boss.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      You don’t need an extra app to install a car key in your wallet (if on iPhone). Well, for BMW this is the case, I think Tesla uses a separate UWB solution that is app heavy (but your phone is more like fob and NFC tap isn’t necessary).
  - axus 3y ago
    I'd compromise with hands-free door unlocking, but some harder method to start the engine.
- kalleboo 3y ago
  Most "keyless" cars still have a physical key that you can flip out from inside the fob for dead battery emergencies, so there's no cost reduction. It's just customer preference. I know I'd never want to give up keyless entry and push start, it's just so handy to leave the keys in my pocket.
kramerger 3y ago
This has been going on for a while. It is surprisingly easy with some brands https://youtube.com/watch?v=hj3ZRv9cMBw https://youtube.com/watch?v=hj3ZRv9cMBw
WirelessGigabit 3y ago
And the fix for this is for the keys to go to sleep when not being moved for x minutes. I can put my keys next to my car and walk away. After x minutes I cannot open my car anymore unless I wiggle the keys. Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRhYFXVo6To https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRhYFXVo6To
- piffey 3y ago
  Seems easy to defeat. I shake your car to make the alarm go off, hide, wait for you to pick up your keys to disable the alarm when you see no one there, use RF extender while your keys are active to unlock and steal the car.
- Borealid 3y ago
  No, the fix for an attack that extends the readable distance via a relay is to use timing information in the authentication process between the key and the car. Car: "please respond to challenge blah" Key: ENC(car-public-key, SIGN(blah)) Car: "too slow" Physics itself limits how quickly you can do a round-trip to a device that's a certain distance away. If the timeout for the operation is set near enough to those physical limits, a relay attack won't work.
  - nullc 3y ago
    the latency auth trick requires very fast timings, to distinguish between 5 ft and 25 ft... 20 feet difference is like 20 ns. (the attacker's parts don't need to be high delay themselves, could be a pair of gain antennas and amplifiers.)
    - contravariant 3y ago
      You could of course use a phase difference instead of trying to measure sub nanosecond timings, but honestly it sounds like a nightmare to get right. Distance travelled by light will probably turn out to have very little in common with how we think it ought to work.
- OtherShrezzing 3y ago
7402 3y ago
Standard kit is a $15 RFID blocker box from Amazon, to keep near front door and put car keys in.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
That only works for some cars, newer fobs (> 2015) turn off after not moving for a while to make these attacks less reliable. You can get a faraday cage box if you have older fobs.

ianschmitz 3y ago

The key needs to be continuously present for the car to continue running. Unless I’m missing something in your story?

instaclay 3y ago
I have a push-button car made by Hyundai and one made by Nissan. Both can be turned on with the fob inside the vehicle. You can then leave the key behind and drive away. The dashboard will immediately warn you that a key is not present (audio and visual icons), but both cars will not do anything to immobilize the car after the key has been left.
scintill76 3y ago
AFAIK my '07 Mazda can drive away without the wireless key. It beeps to warn you when the key is getting out of range.
adolph 3y ago
Signal from the key just needed to start, not a keep-alive. Might depend on make/model. Chances are good an automaker doesn't want to shut off a car at speed just because the key misses a keep-alive ping. The device is actually two sets of equipment. When the unsuspecting victim parks and locks the car, a thief standing not far away holds the first device, which is used to pick up and amplify the electronic signal as it is sent between the car and the key fob. That signal is relayed to a second device, which tricks the car into thinking that the key fob is near the car. That disarms the security system, unlocks the door and authenticates the engine to start. https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-mystery-car-stealing-device-20161207-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-mystery-car-steali...
thepasswordis 3y ago
Not true for any car I’ve ever seen. once it’s started and in drive the key isn’t needed.
- lokar 3y ago
  Mine works this way, you get a warning that it’s going to shutdown in a few min without the key.
kube-system 3y ago
I don't think any car keyless ignition requires the key to be present to continue running. You don't want a car to shut off on the highway if someone drops the key behind a metal object or the battery dies. If you start a car, and then take the key out of the vehicle, you will get a message like this: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Jo6gzVfAElc/maxresdefault.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Jo6gzVfAElc/maxresdefault.jpg You will be able to drive the vehicle until it is put into park or shut off, and you won't be able to drive it again until the key is present again. This has stranded some people who have done the following: * start the car * get out for some reason * leave the key by accident * get back in the car and drive away * park at their destination * they are now stranded without a key
- NoPedantsThanks 3y ago
  Even more surprising: fobs that don't work if the key is in the ignition. My 1996 Mustang had a bad battery, so it would barely start. I took the remote fob off the key ring and left the car running, but locked it (using the physical door-lock button). When I came back later, the fob would not open the door. WTF? Had to have another key brought from home. Another good one: If you open the back door of a Mini Clubman (or the regular Cooper, most likely) and then accidentally drop your fob into the car and close the rear doors or hatch... the car will re-lock itself and you're fucked. This is great when it's a hot day and you just put a dog in the car, which is in the sun. Now you get to break a window. Yay German engineering.
- babypuncher 3y ago
  My car beeps whenever the key is not detected in the cabin while the vehicle is running. It would be very hard to leave the key behind by accident.
  - kube-system 3y ago
    My experience is the same. I suspect one would have to really not pay attention to manage to do this. e.g: stereo up, car already dinging for other reasons, absent minded driver, etc.
jakewins 3y ago
What model vehicle stalls if it can't find the key? That seems like a severe safety problem - you mean it would brake if the battery dies on the key dongle? At least in the two Hyundai's I've owned with this type of system - an Ioniq hybrid and a Kona EV - it drives just fine once started even if you chuck the key out the window.
- thesuitonym 3y ago
  The car turning off is not at all the same as braking. It actually seems LESS safe to me to allow the car to move far beyond the key, because leaving the key behind (Thus stranding yourself) is more likely to occur than the battery dying.
dylan604 3y ago
My first experience with owning a car that had the wireless key surprised me. I had a Toyota Tacoma that needed to be moved. Someone more freely available jumped in and was able to start it because I was fairly close. They drove around the block well out of range and it never stopped running. This was surprising to me. In a previous car, I had a remote start that would specifically kill the engine if you pressed the brake without the key in the right position. So the stopping the engine was something that I just assumed would happen as well. Unless there's a concern about just having the engine stop while actively being driven???
- froggit 3y ago
  > Unless there's a concern about just having the engine stop while actively being driven??? The majority of cars depend on the engine to provide power assist on the brakes and steering. Without power assist the physical effort required to stop and steer goes up significantly. Suddenly having the control dynamics of a multi-ton chunk of metal change dramatically while at speed isn't something most people are capable of responding to correctly. Having the engine stop in the middle of a busy intersection is another way to have a bad time. > I had a remote start that would specifically kill the engine if you pressed the brake without the key in the right position. Being able to start the car remotely and being able to put the car in gear and drive without the key in the ignition are independent features.
WirelessGigabit 3y ago
Sadly no. I've driven to a place with my wife, and then she drove off, with me having the keys in my pocket. It'll keep running. Can you imagine if it stops detecting the keys because the coin-battery is dead and the car all of the sudden stalls? Only when you stop the car and then try to start it you'll notice.

corytheboyd 3y ago

Damn that is clever, and something I hadn’t even thought of before. Plenty of people get home and throw their keys by the door, this would absolutely work with a range extender. Does anyone know why keyless became the norm? Cheaper to manufacture than physical keys with electronic security features?

jakewins 3y ago
My understanding is this is rapidly being replaced by NFC phone tapping, at least that's what Hyundai is swapping to. Annoying though, I've really enjoyed not having to dig through pockets to open the car :(
- corytheboyd 3y ago
  Damn, that sounds so much worse. My Tacoma already has keyless for me to worry about, but at least that doesn’t require an internet connection. I know that NFC itself does not require an internet connection, but the whole point of requiring a smartphone at all here is to have an app that millions of people MUST install, to collect data to sell. I won’t at all be surprised when they arbitrarily lock NFC keyless behind a required internet connection. I’m tired boss.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    You don’t need an extra app to install a car key in your wallet (if on iPhone). Well, for BMW this is the case, I think Tesla uses a separate UWB solution that is app heavy (but your phone is more like fob and NFC tap isn’t necessary).
- axus 3y ago
  I'd compromise with hands-free door unlocking, but some harder method to start the engine.
kalleboo 3y ago
Most "keyless" cars still have a physical key that you can flip out from inside the fob for dead battery emergencies, so there's no cost reduction. It's just customer preference. I know I'd never want to give up keyless entry and push start, it's just so handy to leave the keys in my pocket.

kramerger 3y ago

This has been going on for a while. It is surprisingly easy with some brands https://youtube.com/watch?v=hj3ZRv9cMBw https://youtube.com/watch?v=hj3ZRv9cMBw

WirelessGigabit 3y ago

And the fix for this is for the keys to go to sleep when not being moved for x minutes. I can put my keys next to my car and walk away. After x minutes I cannot open my car anymore unless I wiggle the keys. Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRhYFXVo6To https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRhYFXVo6To

piffey 3y ago
Seems easy to defeat. I shake your car to make the alarm go off, hide, wait for you to pick up your keys to disable the alarm when you see no one there, use RF extender while your keys are active to unlock and steal the car.
Borealid 3y ago
No, the fix for an attack that extends the readable distance via a relay is to use timing information in the authentication process between the key and the car. Car: "please respond to challenge blah" Key: ENC(car-public-key, SIGN(blah)) Car: "too slow" Physics itself limits how quickly you can do a round-trip to a device that's a certain distance away. If the timeout for the operation is set near enough to those physical limits, a relay attack won't work.
- nullc 3y ago
  the latency auth trick requires very fast timings, to distinguish between 5 ft and 25 ft... 20 feet difference is like 20 ns. (the attacker's parts don't need to be high delay themselves, could be a pair of gain antennas and amplifiers.)
  - contravariant 3y ago
    You could of course use a phase difference instead of trying to measure sub nanosecond timings, but honestly it sounds like a nightmare to get right. Distance travelled by light will probably turn out to have very little in common with how we think it ought to work.
OtherShrezzing 3y ago

7402 3y ago

Standard kit is a $15 RFID blocker box from Amazon, to keep near front door and put car keys in.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

That only works for some cars, newer fobs (> 2015) turn off after not moving for a while to make these attacks less reliable. You can get a faraday cage box if you have older fobs.