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Did you read the article? > Von Ohain used Full Self-Driving nearly every time he got behind the wheel, Bass said, placing him among legions of Tesla boosters

by ra7 3y ago

Did you read the article? > Von Ohain used Full Self-Driving nearly every time he got behind the wheel, Bass said, placing him among legions of Tesla boosters heeding Musk’s call to generate data and build the technology’s mastery. While Bass refused to use the feature herself — she said its unpredictability stressed her out — her husband was so confident in all it promised that he even used it with their baby in the car. > “It was jerky, but we were like, that comes with the territory of” new technology, Bass said. “We knew the technology had to learn, and we were willing to be part of that.” Seems like he was indeed fooled by marketing.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
judge2020 3y ago
Wouldn't "bought into the marketing" only apply to something like "I got in this Turo'd Tesla, turned on Autopilot, then 10 seconds later it crashed into another car on an unprotected left-hand turn"? You literally can't believe in the marketing after having used it for as long as it sounds like he has; the car does too much driver monitoring to leave you with the impression it works flawlessly and without human intervention. The entire Twitter/X community that talks about FSD reiterates that the current iterations feel like a 15-year-old driving.
- ra7 3y ago
  Elon Musk: "FSD is already safer than humans, see our (misleading) safety report. If you use it and give us data, it will be a robotaxi by end of the year." This dude: "Sounds good, let me put my baby in it. It's jerky, but I'm contributing for a bigger cause." This counts as being misled by marketing to me.
  - itishappy 3y ago
    Elon: "FSD is safer than humans." This dude: "Neat, I'm going to use it!" FSD, upon activation: "Full Self-Driving (Beta). Full Self-Driving is in early limited access Beta and must be used with additional caution. It may do the wrong thing at the worst time. Do not become complacent. ... Use FSD in limited Beta only if you will pay constant attention to the road, and be prepared to act immediately, specially around blind corners, crossing intersection, and in narrow driving situations. Do you want to enable FSD while it is in limited Beta?" This dude: "Elon said it's safe, I'm going to drink and drive!"
    - ra7 3y ago
      > Elon: "FSD is safer than humans." Well, this is false. So it's misleading right off the bat.
      - itishappy 3y ago
        Is it? I'd heard Tesla was being too tight lipped for any conclusions to be made at this point, but if you've got a study or source I'd love to see it!
        ra7 3y ago
        Their safety report is a joke and their methodology is full of holes. There are a bunch of replies to this comment that explain why: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39359437 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39359437 As far as proving how unsafe it is, no one can do it unless Tesla is transparent with their data. Deliberately hiding that data doesn't automatically mean it's safer than humans, so yes, their claims are indeed highly misleading.
        ajross 3y ago
        You were asked for any evidence that it's unsafe, and you don't have it. The linked article is the only fatal accident you can even point to, and even that one is (1) only a suspected FSD accident based on previous driver statements and (2) really obviously a DUI anyway. Look, these are the most popular vehicles on the road. Where are the wrecks? Where are the bodies? Surely if these were significant there would at least be a bunch of anecdata showing suspicious behavior. And there isn't. And you know that, which is why you're arguing so strongly here. Just chill out. The system is safe. It is not perfect, but it is safe. And no amount of whatifery will make it otherwise.
        ra7 3y ago
        No one can tell with a wreck if FSD was active or not. No shit, no one can point you to actual evidence because Tesla doesn’t release any data. You realize what a ridiculous, circular argument you’re making, right? It’s telling that you want to rely on anecdata and news reports as proof rather than asking Tesla to be forthcoming. To call a system safe and more specifically safer than human, you need data and you don’t have it. Plain and simple. The burden of proof is on you.
rootusrootus 3y ago
> > “It was jerky, but we were like, that comes with the territory of” new technology, Bass said. “We knew the technology had to learn, and we were willing to be part of that.” That's a frightening attitude. Something I keep in mind every time I see another Tesla on the road. And I'm driving one myself.
itishappy 3y ago
They were idiots. > Before enabling Autopilot, the driver first needs to agree to “keep your hands on the steering wheel at all times” and to always “maintain control and responsibility for your vehicle.” Subsequently, every time the driver engages Autopilot, they are shown a visual reminder to “keep your hands on the wheel." They read and accepted the warnings informing them how to use the system, and then did the opposite. They willfully and knowingly used a feature in an unsupported manner. Sorry, this is not being misled by marketing.
- ra7 3y ago
  Ugh, the point is this "feature" shouldn't be allowed to use in an unsupported manner. It's not a button on a website, it's a safety critical system. There's a reason why real self driving companies are super conservative and use a geofence.
  - itishappy 3y ago
    > There's a reason why real self driving companies are super conservative and use a geofence. What reason is that? If they're safety critical systems, why are they putting them on the road at all?
    - ra7 3y ago
      Because they are validated extensively inside that geofence and any operations inside that area are "supported". They don't let the vehicles go anywhere they want and they don't ever allow you to use it in an unsupported manner. You want a Waymo stop right in the middle of a busy intersection? The vehicle will refuse and keep going until it finds a safe place to stop.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  I thought we were talking about FSD, not autopilot, how is autopilot relevant in this conversation?

by ra7 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

judge2020 3y ago

Wouldn't "bought into the marketing" only apply to something like "I got in this Turo'd Tesla, turned on Autopilot, then 10 seconds later it crashed into another car on an unprotected left-hand turn"? You literally can't believe in the marketing after having used it for as long as it sounds like he has; the car does too much driver monitoring to leave you with the impression it works flawlessly and without human intervention. The entire Twitter/X community that talks about FSD reiterates that the current iterations feel like a 15-year-old driving.

ra7 3y ago
Elon Musk: "FSD is already safer than humans, see our (misleading) safety report. If you use it and give us data, it will be a robotaxi by end of the year." This dude: "Sounds good, let me put my baby in it. It's jerky, but I'm contributing for a bigger cause." This counts as being misled by marketing to me.
- itishappy 3y ago
  Elon: "FSD is safer than humans." This dude: "Neat, I'm going to use it!" FSD, upon activation: "Full Self-Driving (Beta). Full Self-Driving is in early limited access Beta and must be used with additional caution. It may do the wrong thing at the worst time. Do not become complacent. ... Use FSD in limited Beta only if you will pay constant attention to the road, and be prepared to act immediately, specially around blind corners, crossing intersection, and in narrow driving situations. Do you want to enable FSD while it is in limited Beta?" This dude: "Elon said it's safe, I'm going to drink and drive!"
  - ra7 3y ago
    > Elon: "FSD is safer than humans." Well, this is false. So it's misleading right off the bat.
    - itishappy 3y ago
      Is it? I'd heard Tesla was being too tight lipped for any conclusions to be made at this point, but if you've got a study or source I'd love to see it!
      - ra7 3y ago
        Their safety report is a joke and their methodology is full of holes. There are a bunch of replies to this comment that explain why: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39359437 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39359437 As far as proving how unsafe it is, no one can do it unless Tesla is transparent with their data. Deliberately hiding that data doesn't automatically mean it's safer than humans, so yes, their claims are indeed highly misleading.
        ajross 3y ago
        You were asked for any evidence that it's unsafe, and you don't have it. The linked article is the only fatal accident you can even point to, and even that one is (1) only a suspected FSD accident based on previous driver statements and (2) really obviously a DUI anyway. Look, these are the most popular vehicles on the road. Where are the wrecks? Where are the bodies? Surely if these were significant there would at least be a bunch of anecdata showing suspicious behavior. And there isn't. And you know that, which is why you're arguing so strongly here. Just chill out. The system is safe. It is not perfect, but it is safe. And no amount of whatifery will make it otherwise.
        ra7 3y ago
        No one can tell with a wreck if FSD was active or not. No shit, no one can point you to actual evidence because Tesla doesn’t release any data. You realize what a ridiculous, circular argument you’re making, right? It’s telling that you want to rely on anecdata and news reports as proof rather than asking Tesla to be forthcoming. To call a system safe and more specifically safer than human, you need data and you don’t have it. Plain and simple. The burden of proof is on you.

rootusrootus 3y ago

> > “It was jerky, but we were like, that comes with the territory of” new technology, Bass said. “We knew the technology had to learn, and we were willing to be part of that.” That's a frightening attitude. Something I keep in mind every time I see another Tesla on the road. And I'm driving one myself.

itishappy 3y ago

They were idiots. > Before enabling Autopilot, the driver first needs to agree to “keep your hands on the steering wheel at all times” and to always “maintain control and responsibility for your vehicle.” Subsequently, every time the driver engages Autopilot, they are shown a visual reminder to “keep your hands on the wheel." They read and accepted the warnings informing them how to use the system, and then did the opposite. They willfully and knowingly used a feature in an unsupported manner. Sorry, this is not being misled by marketing.

ra7 3y ago
Ugh, the point is this "feature" shouldn't be allowed to use in an unsupported manner. It's not a button on a website, it's a safety critical system. There's a reason why real self driving companies are super conservative and use a geofence.
- itishappy 3y ago
  > There's a reason why real self driving companies are super conservative and use a geofence. What reason is that? If they're safety critical systems, why are they putting them on the road at all?
  - ra7 3y ago
    Because they are validated extensively inside that geofence and any operations inside that area are "supported". They don't let the vehicles go anywhere they want and they don't ever allow you to use it in an unsupported manner. You want a Waymo stop right in the middle of a busy intersection? The vehicle will refuse and keep going until it finds a safe place to stop.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
I thought we were talking about FSD, not autopilot, how is autopilot relevant in this conversation?