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Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation
- no_wizard 3y agoI wonder if this will lead to a reversal on supporting RCS, as I feel it was motivated to keep regulators at bay and now that iMessage is found to be exempt I don’t know if Apple has any incentive to follow through
- ComputerGuru 3y agoApple doesn't care about deliverability as a moat. RCS won't moot the blue bubbles so they have no reason not to implement it.
- tsunamifury 3y agoAs someone who is intimately familiar with this, iMessage in America has been considered the strongest sales moat of the iPhone of all for years.
- ComputerGuru 3y agoI don't dispute any of that. Read what I wrote again.
- kmeisthax 3y agoRCS is there to head off further antitrust laws (e.g. in the US) that might force them to open up their messaging platform. Announcing RCS and then canning it the moment they head off one jurisdiction's first attempt at a law would be counterproductive.
- lxgr 3y agoI think they'll still implement it. RCS is a bad enough protocol to not present a real alternative to iMessage while allowing Apple to truthfully claim that they're supporting the thing that Google has been pointing to for message interoperability all these years.
- sircastor 3y agoThey're still trying to hold off regulation in the rest of the world, and the DMA only applies to European Union markets.
- zinekeller 3y agoI'm not surprised by the iMessage decision*, but on the Bing case I'm personally still on the bench. I guess that API-only use is exempt from DMA? * Americans, virtually no one uses iMessage outside your country, or at least to the point that it'll force you to get an iPhone. Even Japan, with their love with iPhones, uses a homegrown service for their messaging needs.
- sakex 3y agoMost Swedes I know use iMessage actually. That's very anecdotal tho
- soco 3y agoSwiss datapoint: my whole extended family/friends circle has iPhones and they only use WhatsApp (and FaceTime for video). I'm not even sure I ever heard the name "iMessage" before.
- kube-system 3y ago> I'm not even sure I ever heard the name "iMessage" before Nobody I know colloquially calls it that in the US either. The app is called "messages", and people just call it "texting"... "on an iPhone". I don't think most people even realize it is not SMS/MMS.
- lalaithion 3y ago> I don't think most people even realize it is not SMS/MMS Nobody knows what SMS or MMS are either.
- sakex 3y agoHey I'm also swiss but we have a weird edge case where most people have an iPhone but still use WhatsApp
- 10729287 3y agoFrench here. I still use iMessage for family and friends one to one discussions but group chats are exclusively on WhatsApp here… and I’ve got tons. Too much. For every circle and sometimes more than one per circle depending on the subject. Are US people using iMessage for this ?
- jamesrr39 3y agoNo real surprise about iMessage and Bing. They are not dominant communication methods/search engines at all, at least within my social circles (in Sweden). Some useful info about who the gatekeepers are/which parts of their platforms have been designated at gatekeeping: https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/gatekeepers_en https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/gatekeepers_en . Includes a nice diagram!
- cgearhart 3y agoThe diagram was helpful. Have you seen anything similar that summarizes what it means for services to be designated this way? As an aside, it strikes me as vaguely protectionist to see that it’s only 6 companies and none of them are European… (maybe that’s a hot take?)
- yorwba 3y agoIt's the opposite of protectionism. European competitors for these services existed at some point, but because they lacked the advantage of a sufficiently large home market and didn't get any extra protection to make up for it, they didn't do as well. Depending on the strength of network effects, they either quickly lost users to the biggest platform, saw the writing on the wall and took an acquisition offer instead, or continue to hold their ground within a particular niche where expanding quickly is difficult (for both foreign and local companies). Any new European internet companies wishing to make it big at home will probably need to concentrate mainly on the US market first in order to have those same network effects work in their favor instead of against them.
- jamesrr39 3y agoNot a diagram, but here is the summary of obligations: https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/about-dma_en#what-does-this-mean-for-gatekeepers https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/about-dma_en#what-d... > Examples of the “do’s”: gatekeepers will for example have to: > - allow third parties to inter-operate with the gatekeeper’s own services in certain specific situations; > - allow their business users to access the data that they generate in their use of the gatekeeper’s platform; > - provide companies advertising on their platform with the tools and information necessary for advertisers and publishers to carry out their own independent verification of their advertisements hosted by the gatekeeper; > - allow their business users to promote their offer and conclude contracts with their customers outside the gatekeeper’s platform. > > Example of the “don'ts”: gatekeepers will for example no longer: > > - treat services and products offered by the gatekeeper itself more favourably in ranking than similar services or products offered by third parties on the gatekeeper's platform; > - prevent consumers from linking up to businesses outside their platforms; > - prevent users from un-installing any pre-installed software or app if they wish so; > - track end users outside of the gatekeepers' core platform service for the purpose of targeted advertising, without effective consent having been granted. --- > As an aside, it strikes me as vaguely protectionist to see that it’s only 6 companies and none of them are European… (maybe that’s a hot take?) Simply put, there are no European companies on this level. If you want a phone, you are going to have to choose Android or iOS. To chat with people on your new phone, you will use what your friends & family are on - most often WhatsApp. When you want to search something on the internet, for most people it's going to be the default search engine, so Google Search. And when you want to go on a Social Network, it's going to be... etc, etc. The EU is of course part of the western world and so has not had the same requirements to develop their own companies, or lock American companies out, like China/Russia. Perhaps the closest that could come to mind could be some messaging apps, e.g. Threema, or perhaps Mastodon as a social network (sure, it's federated, but anyway...). But these don't qualify as they are nowhere near big enough. Finally, I'm quite optimistic about the DMA; not just for consumers in the EU but also in the US and worldwide. I feel there has been significant consolidation of market power and stagnation/coming stagnation, and competition is often considered the way to break out of this. Perhaps we will see a new generation of companies and ideas and more options for both consumers and small/medium businesses in the future.
- junaru 3y ago> EU probe found that iMessage falls outside the legislation because it is not widely used by businesses. Proving once more EU loyalties lie not with the people.
- bilbo0s 3y agoTo be fair to the EU, it's not widely used by people in the EU either. Part of the issue is that here in the US we think Apple is bigger than it is. Maybe it's an important messaging network here in the US, but everywhere else, it's just a phone. A nice one. But still just a phone.
- crazygringo 3y agoTo be fair, it's not "just a phone". iPhone integrates with the whole Apple ecosystem, so I can copy text on my phone and paste it on my Mac without thinking about it, or AirDrop a large file, or use it as a remote control for my Apple TV, and so forth. It's just as much part of the Apple ecosystem everywhere in the world, even if you don't use iMessage. You're not getting anything like that if you're using Android and a PC. Which may be fine depending on your needs. But iMessage isn't the only differentiator here.
- pelorat 3y agoNot a lot of people here uses a Mac either. Why spend 1500 euros on a Mac when you can buy a windows laptop for 500-700 that does everything the Mac does.
- kube-system 3y agoBecause it offers a premium experience and NA buyers have a 50% higher disposable income than EU buyers.
- pb7 3y agoWhy buy an Audi when a Volkswagen does the same thing for 50% of the cost?
- bni 3y agoChat protocols being standardized would be way more useful for me as a user than having "alternate app stores". Many app stores is actually a negative for me, going by my experience from Windows gaming.
- kj99 3y agoThis - they should just mandate RCS, or maybe actually invest in developing a modern European standard and then mandate that. It’s not like they don’t have research universities with CS departments who could be part of a standards body. I don’t mean they should limit alternatives - just that they should require a modern, E2EE standard on all phones, and then we can all just shut up about this.
- troupo 3y ago> they should just mandate RCS RCS doesn't have e2ee in the standard.
- kj99 3y agoAgreed. Which is why I think they should come up with an official standard that does.
- wkat4242 3y agoOr matrix. It's really great and it can interface with most other networks already.
- bni 3y agoNo please don't mandate a specific protocol (that probably suck!) instead require the successful/important protocol tho become interoperable.
- kj99 3y agoIf you mandate that the winning protocol be interoperable you end forward progress on that protocol. If you mandate an official protocol be available alongside others, that protocol can be kept up to date by committee.
- WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago[flagged]
- foepys 3y agoTikTok is one of the largest social networks. It absolutely is a gatekeeper to information for millions of EU citizens.
- WhereIsTheTruth 3y agohttps://www.statista.com/forecasts/1334334/social-media-users-europe-by-platform https://www.statista.com/forecasts/1334334/social-media-user... TikTok is only 3rd in EU, Facebook has 2x the amount of users Besides, to quote this article: > However, the EU probe found that iMessage falls outside the legislation because it is not widely used by businesses. TikTok is not used as social media for "businesses", why include it then? ;) Microsoft's Bing? lol what about Linkedin? Debunking propaganda is not a popular thing apparently
- WhereIsTheTruth 3y agohttps://i.imgur.com/MKte3iR.png https://i.imgur.com/MKte3iR.png That's a sign! I am the messiah they didn't expect!
- yorwba 3y agoThe relevant criterion is "has at least 45 million monthly active end users established or located in the Union and at least 10 000 yearly active business users established in the Union" https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32022R1925#d1e1494-1-1 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A... Of course businesses use TikTok for marketing; I'd be surprised if there were less than 10000 businesses with a TikTok account in the EU. LinkedIn is indeed one of the four social networks designated as gatekeepers: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_23_4328 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_23_...
- jerojero 3y agoThe usage of iMessage in Europe is vastly inferior to the usage of it in America. I think that was a reasonable argument from Apple and the European Commission agreed. But the thing is, apple obviously wants for people to use iPhones in Europe and to use their services just like in America. But they are now very much aware that this sort of market dominance won't come for free like it does in the USA.
- marcellus23 3y agoI'm curious, in what sense did it come "for free" in the USA?
- zamadatix 3y agoIn that the EU does not sit idle once you become a significantly popular player in a given market, not in the sense that they were given free userbase. E.g. in this case if iPhones became more popular then they'd have to open up iMessage where as in the US having market dominance comes with significantly fewer strings attached.
- ghusto 3y agoIn the U.S.A., people use iMessage by default, because they use text messaging. People don't use texts in Europe (we use WhatsApp and similar, but WhatsApp by a long margin). The reason people still use texts in the U.S.A. is up for debate, and it's something I've thought about for a long time.
- hwbehrens 3y agoI think it's a historical artifact -- by the time that iMessage launched, the US was well into the phase of free, unlimited texting, so there was no barrier to "just texting". Since there was also no barrier (in terms of costs, subscriptions, or installation friction) to using iMessage, it was a drop-in upgrade of the user experience for SMS. In contrast, I still have to pay a fee to send SMS messages to my European relatives, so there's a financial incentive to overcome that initial friction to switch messaging provider.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- retskrad 3y agoI believe the assertion suggesting that iMessage plays a pivotal role in the success of the iPhone and contributes significantly to Apple's business is inaccurate. The iMessage platform, in itself, does not possess an inherent quality that renders the iPhone more appealing to consumers. On the contrary, it is the iPhone's inherent appeal that enhances the attractiveness of iMessage. The prestige of the iPhone imparts a certain allure to iMessage, establishing a relationship where the iPhone acts as the catalyst for iMessage's appeal, rather than the reverse. This is why the the iPhone is still a status symbol among the middle class and richest people in the EU, Asia and India - even though they couldn't care less about iMessage over there.
- troupo 3y ago> This is why the the iPhone is still a status symbol among the middle class and richest people in the EU wat? iPhone costs as much as an equivalent Android (and has for some time), and since you can get it with your phone subscription for a rather low monthly payment, it hasn't been a status symbol for a decade or more.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago>iPhone costs as much as an equivalent Android Only flagships, But decent Androids can be had for much less than an iPhone. Like the Samsung A54 for example. Apple doesn't have ~300 Euro phones with OLED screens in its offer.
- troupo 3y agoYes, but that doesn't make them "status phones for middle class people". The latest iPhone 15 can be had for 30 EUR/month even in Sweden (Sweden is very expensive) [1]. That's a single lunch for two. [1] https://www.tre.se/handla/mobiltelefoner/apple/iphone-15 https://www.tre.se/handla/mobiltelefoner/apple/iphone-15
- FirmwareBurner 3y agoSweden also has some of the highest salaries in Europe/the world, that's why they're not a status symbol, because even a pizza delivery boy can afford an iPhone 15 Pro Max. But they very much are a status symbol in less developed countries with lower wages: Eastern Europe, Latin America, etc. Lower and middle class people there will save for over a year just to get the latest iPhone, which is why there's a huge market there for clones.