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This may be a dumb question, but whats the underlying value of regular money? From my understanding it used to be backed by gold but isnt anymore, and governmen

This may be a dumb question, but whats the underlying value of regular money? From my understanding it used to be backed by gold but isnt anymore, and governments print more when they need it?

GenerWork 3y ago
It's backed by government force.
its_ethan 3y ago
One (of several) ways to think about this would be that money backed by the government treating it as the legal tender for settling any and all debts within that country. So the underlaying value is partially just trust in that governments ability to enforce laws related to the exchange of money and/or settling of debts between it's citizens/users of the money. If a government issued money but never imposed/enforced penalties for failing to pay debts, that money would probably be pretty useless (less underlaying value), and some other form of money would emerge (probably one backed by actual value, like gold/scarce resources).
staticman2 3y ago
People don't want to barter so they agree to take money. It's useful because you don't want to take your salary in hens or goats or GPUs or whatever and trade them for things you need. That use provides the value. History doesn't suggest that trading with papers that can be exchanged with gold works better, is my understanding. The U.S. was on a gold standard during the great depression.
mindcandy 3y ago
From what I understand, the US Dollar is backed by: The IRS requires taxes be paid in dollars. It's a federal offense to refuse payment in dollars for purchases under US jurisdiction. The US has negotiated other countries to require payment in dollars for oil and maybe other goods. The world generally has confidence in the dollar as a fairly stable currency that is unlikely to collapse. What did I miss? My understanding of what backs Bitcoin is: By mining Bitcoin, you are provably putting yourself into a financial loss and therefore are provably motivated to turn that around into a profit. Buying Bitcoin is also equivalent to mining in this regard. That means around the world, millions of people are motivated to the tune of nearly a trillion dollars to ensure that the system continues to not only keep working, but grow more valuable.
- kraftman 3y ago
  > That means around the world, millions of people are motivated to the tune of nearly a trillion dollars to ensure that the system continues to not only keep working, but grow more valuable. I guess I'm asking why this isnt valuable? It seems like a large portion of the world has agreed to trade assets in USD and assign various values of there assets to the value of USD, and much smaller portion of the world has agreed to do the same with BTC, so the differences is that you have to pay your taxes with one and you dont with the other?
- friend_and_foe 3y ago
  Well, the mining stuff has a role, but in reality, the thing that backs bitcoin is the same thing that backs gold. What backs gold? You might say, that's a silly question, gold is just gold. But why then is it valuable? The answer is it's scarcity. The same is true of bitcoin. Gold mining is destructive and incurs an energy expenditure. Economically, it incurs a capital expenditure and a venture must demonstrate a risk profile, a probability of return justifying the venture. The two endeavors have similar profiles, with bitcoin though the amount you can mine is predetermined. In gold, it is soft predetermined in that it is known generally that it gets more difficult over time to extract and more expenditure is needed, more powerful techniques must be developed. In the bitcoin world this is straightforward, "more powerful techniques" are just more transistors per square inch configured to hash SHA256. The "more difficult over time" is just competition with people who have already developed more efficient machines. Capital expenditure is pure energy, not digging pits or pumping solvents or electrolytes into veins. And scarcity is absolute.
- angry_albatross 3y ago
  I think that is a fine description of the backing of the US Dollar. For Bitcoin though, it sounds like you are defending Bitcoin as an investment, which I don't agree with. Unlike Bitcoin, the US Dollar is not considered an investment. It's just a currency, a medium of exchange. It loses some value over time, and we're ok with that. Bitcoin is pretty difficult to use as a currency, so people usually promote it as an investment instead. Here is what I have to say about it as an investment: where is the money actually coming from for the returns? In order for the price to keep going up, people have to keep adding more money to the pool. This is pretty clearly a negative sum game, where the players on average must lose more than they win. Some people may win, but they are mathematically in the minority. Most people who appear to be winning are only winning on paper right now. If everyone who was currently holding tried to withdraw their money and cash out, who would be the ones buying them out? It's not clear. There is no utility to the thing that they own. It's essentially just a number in a spreadsheet.
dakial1 3y ago
You might also ask what is the underlying value of gold. You can do nice stuff with it and has some industrial applications, but it held value historically because of its scarcity. That's why countries changed it, because they realized their economies were more valuable that their gold stash (and it gave much more economic policy freedom) An economist might give you a more intricate answer, but basically the underlying value of the (fiat) money today is basically the power of the issuing country's economy and government (who is the one guaranteeing the fiat validity)
- kraftman 3y ago
  So gold had value because of its scarcity. Why can't bitcoin have value due to its scarcity?
  - EA-3167 3y ago
    Because the former scarcity is real, and driven by economic factors, and the latter is a fiction that burns energy to create noise.
    - kraftman 3y ago
      I'm not sure I understand why expending energy to mining more gold than we actually need, so that the excess can be used to represent money, is worse than expending engery to verify scarcity and transactions. If the argument is efficiency then there are so many other examples of society being inneficient, why is it an issue for bitcoin but not for other industries?
      - bb88 3y ago
        In the case of BTC and gold, mining puts downward price pressure as new "resources" are "discovered". Miners need to sell the gold/BTC to recoup the cost associated with mining. In BTC it's energy, in gold it's equipment/labor. In a free market, we would expect the inefficiencies to be removed from the economy over time. New competition, new ideas, etc. In the case of BTC, removing PoW would remove the downward price pressure it sees today. The miners don't really want BTC, they want USD.
skybrian 3y ago
Government tax collection, which in turn depends on the economic health of the nation. If a country’s economy collapses and/or the government is weak at collecting taxes then inflation becomes more likely. One effect is that the government currency is the unit of value for tax accounting. For the US, you need to figure out what your income is in dollars in order to do your taxes. For assets in other currencies, you need to convert. Another effect is taking tax payments in government currency. However, I suspect it would be much the same if the government did the currency exchange for you? Whoever does the exchange will drive up the demand for government currency.
haunter 3y ago
>but whats the underlying value of regular money That I can spend it.
- kraftman 3y ago
  Which means someone will agree to trade it with your for something you want, or something you can use to trade with something you want. You can take your USD and trade it for EUR to buy a coffee in france. You can also take BTC and trade it for EUR to buy coffee in france. In both instances the person selling you the EUR beleives that they can resell what you are giving them? So I'm struggling to see how they have different underlying values.

This may be a dumb question, but whats the underlying value of regular money? From my understanding it used to be backed by gold but isnt anymore, and governments print more when they need it?

GenerWork 3y ago

It's backed by government force.

its_ethan 3y ago

One (of several) ways to think about this would be that money backed by the government treating it as the legal tender for settling any and all debts within that country. So the underlaying value is partially just trust in that governments ability to enforce laws related to the exchange of money and/or settling of debts between it's citizens/users of the money. If a government issued money but never imposed/enforced penalties for failing to pay debts, that money would probably be pretty useless (less underlaying value), and some other form of money would emerge (probably one backed by actual value, like gold/scarce resources).

staticman2 3y ago

People don't want to barter so they agree to take money. It's useful because you don't want to take your salary in hens or goats or GPUs or whatever and trade them for things you need. That use provides the value. History doesn't suggest that trading with papers that can be exchanged with gold works better, is my understanding. The U.S. was on a gold standard during the great depression.

mindcandy 3y ago

From what I understand, the US Dollar is backed by: The IRS requires taxes be paid in dollars. It's a federal offense to refuse payment in dollars for purchases under US jurisdiction. The US has negotiated other countries to require payment in dollars for oil and maybe other goods. The world generally has confidence in the dollar as a fairly stable currency that is unlikely to collapse. What did I miss? My understanding of what backs Bitcoin is: By mining Bitcoin, you are provably putting yourself into a financial loss and therefore are provably motivated to turn that around into a profit. Buying Bitcoin is also equivalent to mining in this regard. That means around the world, millions of people are motivated to the tune of nearly a trillion dollars to ensure that the system continues to not only keep working, but grow more valuable.

kraftman 3y ago
> That means around the world, millions of people are motivated to the tune of nearly a trillion dollars to ensure that the system continues to not only keep working, but grow more valuable. I guess I'm asking why this isnt valuable? It seems like a large portion of the world has agreed to trade assets in USD and assign various values of there assets to the value of USD, and much smaller portion of the world has agreed to do the same with BTC, so the differences is that you have to pay your taxes with one and you dont with the other?
friend_and_foe 3y ago
Well, the mining stuff has a role, but in reality, the thing that backs bitcoin is the same thing that backs gold. What backs gold? You might say, that's a silly question, gold is just gold. But why then is it valuable? The answer is it's scarcity. The same is true of bitcoin. Gold mining is destructive and incurs an energy expenditure. Economically, it incurs a capital expenditure and a venture must demonstrate a risk profile, a probability of return justifying the venture. The two endeavors have similar profiles, with bitcoin though the amount you can mine is predetermined. In gold, it is soft predetermined in that it is known generally that it gets more difficult over time to extract and more expenditure is needed, more powerful techniques must be developed. In the bitcoin world this is straightforward, "more powerful techniques" are just more transistors per square inch configured to hash SHA256. The "more difficult over time" is just competition with people who have already developed more efficient machines. Capital expenditure is pure energy, not digging pits or pumping solvents or electrolytes into veins. And scarcity is absolute.
angry_albatross 3y ago
I think that is a fine description of the backing of the US Dollar. For Bitcoin though, it sounds like you are defending Bitcoin as an investment, which I don't agree with. Unlike Bitcoin, the US Dollar is not considered an investment. It's just a currency, a medium of exchange. It loses some value over time, and we're ok with that. Bitcoin is pretty difficult to use as a currency, so people usually promote it as an investment instead. Here is what I have to say about it as an investment: where is the money actually coming from for the returns? In order for the price to keep going up, people have to keep adding more money to the pool. This is pretty clearly a negative sum game, where the players on average must lose more than they win. Some people may win, but they are mathematically in the minority. Most people who appear to be winning are only winning on paper right now. If everyone who was currently holding tried to withdraw their money and cash out, who would be the ones buying them out? It's not clear. There is no utility to the thing that they own. It's essentially just a number in a spreadsheet.

dakial1 3y ago

You might also ask what is the underlying value of gold. You can do nice stuff with it and has some industrial applications, but it held value historically because of its scarcity. That's why countries changed it, because they realized their economies were more valuable that their gold stash (and it gave much more economic policy freedom) An economist might give you a more intricate answer, but basically the underlying value of the (fiat) money today is basically the power of the issuing country's economy and government (who is the one guaranteeing the fiat validity)

kraftman 3y ago
So gold had value because of its scarcity. Why can't bitcoin have value due to its scarcity?
- EA-3167 3y ago
  Because the former scarcity is real, and driven by economic factors, and the latter is a fiction that burns energy to create noise.
  - kraftman 3y ago
    I'm not sure I understand why expending energy to mining more gold than we actually need, so that the excess can be used to represent money, is worse than expending engery to verify scarcity and transactions. If the argument is efficiency then there are so many other examples of society being inneficient, why is it an issue for bitcoin but not for other industries?
    - bb88 3y ago
      In the case of BTC and gold, mining puts downward price pressure as new "resources" are "discovered". Miners need to sell the gold/BTC to recoup the cost associated with mining. In BTC it's energy, in gold it's equipment/labor. In a free market, we would expect the inefficiencies to be removed from the economy over time. New competition, new ideas, etc. In the case of BTC, removing PoW would remove the downward price pressure it sees today. The miners don't really want BTC, they want USD.

skybrian 3y ago

Government tax collection, which in turn depends on the economic health of the nation. If a country’s economy collapses and/or the government is weak at collecting taxes then inflation becomes more likely. One effect is that the government currency is the unit of value for tax accounting. For the US, you need to figure out what your income is in dollars in order to do your taxes. For assets in other currencies, you need to convert. Another effect is taking tax payments in government currency. However, I suspect it would be much the same if the government did the currency exchange for you? Whoever does the exchange will drive up the demand for government currency.

haunter 3y ago

>but whats the underlying value of regular money That I can spend it.

kraftman 3y ago
Which means someone will agree to trade it with your for something you want, or something you can use to trade with something you want. You can take your USD and trade it for EUR to buy a coffee in france. You can also take BTC and trade it for EUR to buy coffee in france. In both instances the person selling you the EUR beleives that they can resell what you are giving them? So I'm struggling to see how they have different underlying values.