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I really like my M1 Mac, but the notch has to be the dumbest design decision in the history of laptops :/ I would accept any design compromise for the webcam, m

I really like my M1 Mac, but the notch has to be the dumbest design decision in the history of laptops :/ I would accept any design compromise for the webcam, make it grainy / low-res and put it under the display, put it at the bottom so it points up my nose, or move into a small 'corner notch' in the top-right corner so that the camera looks at me from the side ... anything really but please get rid of that stupidly oversized center notch.

bri3k 3y ago
You can change the resolution in System Settings->Displays, make it so the entire display is below the notch.
- flohofwoe 3y ago
  The thing is, I really like the thin bezel, but why has the notch to be so massively big? The camera hole looks like it's just about 3..4 millimeters in diameter. PS: also looking around, there seem to be plenty of laptops with thin display bezel and no notch, if others can do it, why not Apple?
  - Wowfunhappy 3y ago
    > PS: also looking around, there seem to be plenty of laptops with thin display bezel and no notch, if others can do it, why not Apple? Because those laptops have worse webcams. You don't have to agree with the tradeoff Apple made, in fact I don't, but I think the reasoning is pretty clear.
  - Waterluvian 3y ago
    There’s like four different things in the notch. Not just a camera. Plus some recessed screw holes to mount it. The notch feels weird, but when I try to redesign it without sacrificing features, I can’t come up with a better option. …Not that I’m a brilliant designer by any means.
    - pimanrules 3y ago
      Not really? There's a webcam, an indicator LED, an ambient light sensor, and a lot of empty space. As far as I can tell, the MacBook notch is wide just to make it look like the iPhone notch. https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/5JIdAqwLsxWAFAyZ https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/5JIdAqwLsxWAFAyZ
      - Tagbert 3y ago
        There is also the mounting hardware. It’s not an unreasonable size for what it contains. If they were to really redesign the module they might shave a little off of it but how impactful would that reduction really be?
        johnwalkr 3y ago
        They probably set the notch size with some margin too, so they could develop the camera module and LCD at the same time.
        Tagbert 3y ago
        Here is the module behind the notch: https://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/img_0383-jpeg.2205366/ https://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/img_0383-jpeg.22053...
      - dlivingston 3y ago
        > The MacBook notch is wide just to make it look like the iPhone notch. I'm convinced this is true, at least partially. The iPhone notch is branding and a visual differentiator from the competition, which is Apple's forte, and carrying over that very distinctive design element to other product lines seems right in Apple's playbook. In other words: glass slab in your hand? Who knows. Glass slab with a black notch? iPhone. Person typing on metallic laptop in a cafe? Who knows. Ah, but the screen has a notch? MacBook.
  - jwells89 3y ago
    Most of those other laptops have asymmetric bezels, which Apple was probably trying to avoid. They wanted thin bezels on all edges. The extra room in the notch is likely there in case they want to change webcam parts to something larger, add Face ID, etc so they don’t also have to change the display panel and can continue to use existing stock. Apple seems to like to try to avoid changing parts/tooling wherever possible and will go as far as to awkwardly keep using a chassis until stock of that part has been exhausted if necessary (see the 13” M1 Touch Bar MBP).
    - nottorp 3y ago
      > Most of those other laptops have asymmetric bezels, which Apple was probably trying to avoid. They wanted thin bezels on all edges. Yeah, I'm thinking firing Johnny Ive wasn't enough.
- tambourine_man 3y ago
  It is extremely hidden, but here's how you access all available resolutions, including the ones which work below the notch: https://support.apple.com/en-ke/guide/mac-help/mchl86d72b76/mac#:~:text=To%20see%20the%20available%20resolutions,view%20and%20choose%20Show%20Thumbnails https://support.apple.com/en-ke/guide/mac-help/mchl86d72b76/....
dev_tty01 3y ago
Just use something like RDM to set the screen size to the choice that is a few pixels shorter. The system will take those pixels off the top and the notch will disappear. The top of the active pixel area will be a bit lower. I suspect those settings are available in the controller because some Apple engineers also hate the notch.
gniv 3y ago
> I would accept any design compromise for the webcam, make it grainy / low-res I think this is a minority opinion. I personally don't remark the notch anymore.
- ambyra 3y ago
  It’s an okay solution, not the best, but definitely the most expensive. Another solution that would have been cool and expensive: if they put a camera in each corner of the screen. Then at least they could have the rounded corners they always wanted. Also four cameras could be used for cool 3d effects and AI to keep your eyes looking at the center of the screen.
  - cooper_ganglia 3y ago
    Wait a second, I think you’re onto something here…
    - mceachen 3y ago
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_Phone https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_Phone had a camera on every corner of the front screen.
      - cooper_ganglia 3y ago
        Thanks for the link! I went in search of a product like this to read about it's development, but didn't find one in my short search. This was super convenient!
  - LeonenTheDK 3y ago
    > Also four cameras could be used for cool 3d effects and AI to keep your eyes looking at the center of the screen. Nvidia has been doing the eyes with a single generic camera for over a year now: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/jan-2023-nvidia-broadcast-update/ https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/jan-2023-nvidia-br...
duxup 3y ago
> put it at the bottom so it points up my nose My Dell has a nose cam… it’s so unpleasant a view that it is unusable IMO.
wulfeet 3y ago
I've been using a M1 for well over a year, and until about two weeks ago I didn't know it had a notch. I don't follow the tech press, who I'm sure discussed it a great length when it was released. And I'm not personally invested in the Mac, it's owned by my employer. So I didn't notice the notch until my cursor disappeared while scrolling across the top of the screen.
- TillE 3y ago
  Yeah it's completely invisible if you use a background that's very dark near the top, I haven't thought about the notch in months.
- bombcar 3y ago
  The notch is really noticeable if you have a white menubar. I'd take a screenshot of it but ... ha!
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
bloopernova 3y ago
I use my mac docked and closed, so I hardly ever see the notch. However I think Apple should be able to use some fancy engineering to keep the camera as hidden as possible in the edge of the screen surround. Or use multiple fibre optic points embedded in the screen along with those fancy neural processors to create an eye-to-eye webcam.
swozey 3y ago
I've had an m1 max 14" since the week they first released 2-3 years ago and I actually COMPLETELY forgot there was a notch until I read this post. I can't think of like, one time when it was an issue but I also have probably used TopNotch since then.
thimp 3y ago
Haven't really noticed mine. Even after I've used it plugged into the studio display for a couple of days and go back to laptop mode, it's just such a non issue.
- pdntspa 3y ago
  I agree here. I thought it was dumb but the OS works around it really nicely; the only time it ever got in the way was with some non-native software
- lloeki 3y ago
  I live with it, the most annoying part being how big it is vertically. It has a weird psychological effect of screaming WASTED SPACE!!! at me, even though I rationally know that if the screen would start below would make for less space. It's constantly bothering me to the point that I set a background with a black area at the top so that it blends with the menubar. I don't have a problem with the menubar icons though because I keep that tidy and minimal. I punt on the issue through clamshell mode most of the time though. To each their own, and TBH I have worse pet peeves.
  - devsda 3y ago
    The way I see it, we can think of the screen below the notch as actual display area and consider the area next to notch as bonus display dedicated for menubar. The bonus area goes dark when in fullscreen app. So, the app area is consistent in both modes. This way you don't have to feel like there's wasted space.
  - j45 3y ago
    Is there a chance anything that us paid attention to grows in size. Would anyone be willing to go to an older laptop without it? Assuming not, what are the options? External displays? I find I usually look at the content on the screen not the webcam or the notch, but it could be different for others
    - felixding 3y ago
Fnoord 3y ago
I own a M1 MBP. What you wrote about notch isn't a fact but a (controversial) opinion. Some people feel very strongly about it in a negative way, but many don't care. Personally, I don't care much about notches, and if you can put the pixels very dark/black (ie. OLED) I don't think you should care either. With Settings -> Accessibility -> Reduce Transparency you can make the menubar very dark. But to be fair, miniLED isn't OLED. I am using Bartender to hide items in menubar. I did so before notch existed. Without it, I wouldn't be able to fit my menubar (with or without notch).
- bombcar 3y ago
  I prefer to think of it as two large full-color notches going upwards as compared to a small black notch coming down. Too bad they didn't increase the resolution of the display slightly for that.
  - selectodude 3y ago
    They absolutely did though. The notched MacBooks are 15.5:10 instead of 16:10.
    - bombcar 3y ago
      I'm honestly amazed I didn't know that, perhaps Apple should have shipped the NotchBook Pro™ with the menubar below the notch, and everything above black, and had a setting you could change to turn it to how it is now.
      - Fnoord 3y ago
        There's some apps in the App Store which allow you to, on top of the accessibility setting I mentioned earlier. It isn't ideal. Let me put it this way: if too many people dislike the notch, I'm cool they go without it. Or have two versions. The issue simply doesn't bother me, I'm indifferent about it. MBPs have had much worse issues between 2016 and 2020.
lcnmrn 3y ago
I sold a M2 MBA and bought a M1 MBA because of the notch.
dur-randir 3y ago
>but the notch has to be the dumbest design decision in the history of laptops No, it had been the touch bar. There're multiply solutions for the notch, none had been imagined for that abomination.
- mjcohen 3y ago
  I got the original 13" M1 MPB and put some additional "buttons" on the touch bar. Sort of miss it on my 16" M1 MBP.
andrei_says_ 3y ago
The notch gives me a larger screen combined with a camera and a smaller body. I personally value these and the decision to use that real estate for the hardware camera is imo quite creative. I paid a few dollars for the bartender app which solves for the hidden apps. Haven’t thought about it since.
Groxx 3y ago
I really hate it. I lose menu bar applications and application menus behind it literally every single day. I don't mind that it exists and that some people prefer it to large bezels... I just wish there was a way to say "claim my screen is -X pixels and show me the full menu" like before. Without both requiring one app to be full screen and that crazy scaling mode that makes everything fuzzy.
- renewedrebecca 3y ago
  That’s literally possible… there’s some criteria that will force the display into that mode (although I can’t remember off hand what it is)
  - Groxx 3y ago
    Full screen app + tell it to shrink (afaik only available if it doesn't natively declare support for the notch). And it achieves it by scaling the whole screen ever so slightly, ruining pixel offsets everywhere and making everything fuzzy, seemingly so it doesn't ever present a non-standard display ratio despite the notch being very non-standard already, and despite full screen apps already working on external monitors that can have any ratio. It's not an option anywhere else. Nor would I want that fuzzy mess anyway. It's such an insane design.
    - kalleboo 3y ago
      Incorrect System Settings > Displays > Advanced > Show resolutions list > Select the 16:9 resolution with slightly fewer vertical pixels than your current one
      - Groxx 3y ago
        Aah, and then also "show all resolutions" is revealed after that advanced toggle. Dang that's well hidden. Why isn't that just a toggle in the advanced section or something... Thank you! This is much better.
amanzi 3y ago
You're right about the dumb design decision. There's no good technical reason that it's so massive compared to the single tiny webcam. The only way it would have made any sense was if it also contained the FaceID array of cameras too. This was just Apple going all-in on the notch that was part of the "iconic" iPhone design. Now that the iPhone notch is on the way out, I expect they'll introduce the dynamic island to the MBP in a future update.
kstrauser 3y ago
If you look at it as "the notch took away part of the screen", it's annoying. I see it like "the notch gave me new chunks of screen that wouldn't have been there otherwise".
- pompino 3y ago
  A customer should care about looking at a retail product with their own POV, not someone else's. This is the classic "you're holding it wrong" response.
  - SkyMarshal 3y ago
    It's more the classic glass half empty vs half full response. Although given the small size of the notch, it's more like 10% empty vs 90% full.
    - xattt 3y ago
      “Screen half black vs half lit up”
    - pompino 3y ago
      I don't see a problem with criticizing the one of richest companies in the world on legitimate issues, or holding them to a very high standard. They can defend themselves just fine. I'd give a smaller company much more leeway. I own several Apple products (often the ones I criticize the most are the ones I personally purchased and used long term), but I'm not part of the Apple "community" or other Apple fanbases.
  - yungporko 3y ago
    no it's just a fact. before the notch, the parts of the screen either side of it were not screen, but now they are. the complaints about the notch literally boil down to "it's not enough extra screen".
    - pompino 3y ago
      The only "fact" here is that Apple is going to milk you twice. Once when they sold you a knowingly flawed design and again, when they finally develop the tech to eliminate the notch, Apple fans will happily line up to pay them again.
anais9 3y ago
Completely agree - I made https://notchbegone.com https://notchbegone.com to help mask it visually when it came out expecting Apple to quickly obviate via their own design updates and yet years later we're still having this conversation. My tinfoil hat take is that the true primary purpose of the notch is to drive upgrade purchases at some point in the future whenever serious technical advancements are waning.
porphyra 3y ago
I don't think the notch is inherently dumb. It's a great use of the space in the macOS menu bar that is otherwise usually wasted. Moreover, having a good webcam is very important to a lot of Macbook users who would not be able to tolerate grainier cameras or the nostril-peering bottom positioning on some XPS laptops. It is, however, super annoying that various implementation bugs have not been fixed after years.
ActorNightly 3y ago
>but the notch has to be the dumbest design decision in the history of laptops The virtual escape key on the touch bar, all while Apple was pushing their laptops as developer friendly, is magnitudes worse
mort96 3y ago
Just don't think of it as a 15.4:10ish screen with a hole cut out of it, think of it as a 16:10 screen with some extra space on top for the menu bar. Realistically, what you're proposing is to remove the part of the screen with the notch in it to make it a normal 16:10 screen, and tbh that seems like a straight-up downgrade. I do think the machine looks better with a dark menu bar in the "notched" area though. That's how I have my Asahi Linux system set up.
- Miraste 3y ago
  I don't believe those are the only options. Why is the notch so big? If they kept the webcam the same size and made it a hole punch in the display, instead of surrounding it with a giant blob that still can't do Face ID, it would solve the whole problem.
  - Tagbert 3y ago
    Because there is more than just a camera. There is the camera, two sensors, and some mounting hardware. It all adds up to some space. The specific size doesn’t really matter especially if you use Bartender to properly manage the app icons. See the camera module here: https://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/img_0383-jpeg.2205366/ https://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/img_0383-jpeg.22053...
    - Miraste 3y ago
      I know, but the other two sensors are for color temperature and light level. There's no reason they couldn't be in the bezel or the bottom of the display, and they don't need that massive chunk just to mount a camera. Before Apple Silicon I always set the menu bar to autohide, and it bugs me unreasonably that I can't do that anymore.
  - mort96 3y ago
    I agree that it certainly seems wider than necessary.
apple4ever 3y ago
> the notch has to be the dumbest design decision in the history of laptops Agreed. It's such a bad bad bad design. No reason to hide the camera. Just make the bezel taller. Its fine. It's just as bad as the notch/pill on the iPhone. Drives me crazy everytime I look at it. Can't wait til we move to a notch free world.
- Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
  > Can't wait til we move to a notch free world. Never gonna happen. Apple sales continue to grow despite the notch, so obviously users LOVE the notch. The notch is here until we can put a camera and any other sensors inside the screen without losing pixels.
  - apple4ever 3y ago
    I understand its Apple's current policy, but you did contradict yourself by saying never gonna happen and it's only here until we can put sensors inside the screen. And I doubt users LOVE the notch. They tolerate the notch at best, and if you gave them a non-notch device, they'd instantly see the would hate the notch.
    - Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
      > And I doubt users LOVE the notch. The comment was supposed to be rather tongue-in-cheek. I'm poking fun at how companies will make a change to a product, people still buy the product, and the company then assumes that people must like the change. Fact is, people will buy the latest iPhone no matter what. They make unpopular changes and people buy them anyways.
__jonas 3y ago
Hm I don’t have one of those notch MacBooks but it kind of seems like a great idea to me if my understanding of how it works is correct. I usually use my apps in fullscreen, which hides the menu bar, this has the very annoying side effect that moving the cursor to the top of the screen (where a lot of apps have buttons) will make the menu bar drop down and cover the buttons. I am assuming a fullscreen app will not extend under the notch, so with this notch thing I imagine I could always have the menu bar visible on fullscreen apps without sacrificing screen real estate and without the annoying animation triggering when I want to interact with the upper part of the app. Can someone confirm it really works like this? I feel like it would be a huge improvement.
- eastbound 3y ago
  If that were true, it would be losing a centimeter off the too of the screen, wouldn’t it?
  - __jonas 3y ago
    Would it? I wouldn't consider the bezel/notch area part of the screen, since I assume an app in fullscreen mode doesn't extend into that area anyways because how would they deal with UI elements that fall into the top center? I mean maybe it's a bit of mental gymnastics, of course it's technically screen space taken away, but I am guessing the top bezel also becomes thinner so it seems like a great use of space to me, feels like it would allow me to justify always having the menu bar visible without feeling like it being there is wasting my space (because nothing else can be there). And having the menu bar always visible + avoiding this animation is something I would love.
  - nicoburns 3y ago
    You do lose a centimeter off the top of the screen, but luckily they added a centimeter to the screen (compared to the previous model) when they built it. So it's pretty strictly a win. The area of the screen below the notch is 16:10 resolution. The bar at the top is "extra".
naikrovek 3y ago
You can set screen resolutions which bring down the top of the screen to the bottom of the notch and leave everything else alone. You lose 64(?) pixels of vertical screen but the notch goes away.
ClassyJacket 3y ago
I could deal with a hole punch camera like on Android phones, or a Dynamic Island or something, but why on Earth does it need to be so big? The camera itself is tiny, and it's far bigger than the Dynamic Island despite containing only a camera, and not a depth sensor too. We get that gigantic black notch and don't even get FaceID. Is it something to do with the lid being thinner than an iPhone so the entire camera assembly needs a cutout rather than just the lens? That's the only reason I can think of. Personally, I'd rather even have a physical notch extending out from the edge of the screen, like a tab in the middle, than the current black cutout.

bri3k 3y ago

You can change the resolution in System Settings->Displays, make it so the entire display is below the notch.

flohofwoe 3y ago
The thing is, I really like the thin bezel, but why has the notch to be so massively big? The camera hole looks like it's just about 3..4 millimeters in diameter. PS: also looking around, there seem to be plenty of laptops with thin display bezel and no notch, if others can do it, why not Apple?
- Wowfunhappy 3y ago
  > PS: also looking around, there seem to be plenty of laptops with thin display bezel and no notch, if others can do it, why not Apple? Because those laptops have worse webcams. You don't have to agree with the tradeoff Apple made, in fact I don't, but I think the reasoning is pretty clear.
- Waterluvian 3y ago
  There’s like four different things in the notch. Not just a camera. Plus some recessed screw holes to mount it. The notch feels weird, but when I try to redesign it without sacrificing features, I can’t come up with a better option. …Not that I’m a brilliant designer by any means.
  - pimanrules 3y ago
    Not really? There's a webcam, an indicator LED, an ambient light sensor, and a lot of empty space. As far as I can tell, the MacBook notch is wide just to make it look like the iPhone notch. https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/5JIdAqwLsxWAFAyZ https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/5JIdAqwLsxWAFAyZ
    - Tagbert 3y ago
      There is also the mounting hardware. It’s not an unreasonable size for what it contains. If they were to really redesign the module they might shave a little off of it but how impactful would that reduction really be?
      - johnwalkr 3y ago
        They probably set the notch size with some margin too, so they could develop the camera module and LCD at the same time.
      - Tagbert 3y ago
        Here is the module behind the notch: https://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/img_0383-jpeg.2205366/ https://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/img_0383-jpeg.22053...
    - dlivingston 3y ago
      > The MacBook notch is wide just to make it look like the iPhone notch. I'm convinced this is true, at least partially. The iPhone notch is branding and a visual differentiator from the competition, which is Apple's forte, and carrying over that very distinctive design element to other product lines seems right in Apple's playbook. In other words: glass slab in your hand? Who knows. Glass slab with a black notch? iPhone. Person typing on metallic laptop in a cafe? Who knows. Ah, but the screen has a notch? MacBook.
- jwells89 3y ago
  Most of those other laptops have asymmetric bezels, which Apple was probably trying to avoid. They wanted thin bezels on all edges. The extra room in the notch is likely there in case they want to change webcam parts to something larger, add Face ID, etc so they don’t also have to change the display panel and can continue to use existing stock. Apple seems to like to try to avoid changing parts/tooling wherever possible and will go as far as to awkwardly keep using a chassis until stock of that part has been exhausted if necessary (see the 13” M1 Touch Bar MBP).
  - nottorp 3y ago
    > Most of those other laptops have asymmetric bezels, which Apple was probably trying to avoid. They wanted thin bezels on all edges. Yeah, I'm thinking firing Johnny Ive wasn't enough.
tambourine_man 3y ago
It is extremely hidden, but here's how you access all available resolutions, including the ones which work below the notch: https://support.apple.com/en-ke/guide/mac-help/mchl86d72b76/mac#:~:text=To%20see%20the%20available%20resolutions,view%20and%20choose%20Show%20Thumbnails https://support.apple.com/en-ke/guide/mac-help/mchl86d72b76/....

dev_tty01 3y ago

Just use something like RDM to set the screen size to the choice that is a few pixels shorter. The system will take those pixels off the top and the notch will disappear. The top of the active pixel area will be a bit lower. I suspect those settings are available in the controller because some Apple engineers also hate the notch.

gniv 3y ago

> I would accept any design compromise for the webcam, make it grainy / low-res I think this is a minority opinion. I personally don't remark the notch anymore.

ambyra 3y ago
It’s an okay solution, not the best, but definitely the most expensive. Another solution that would have been cool and expensive: if they put a camera in each corner of the screen. Then at least they could have the rounded corners they always wanted. Also four cameras could be used for cool 3d effects and AI to keep your eyes looking at the center of the screen.
- cooper_ganglia 3y ago
  Wait a second, I think you’re onto something here…
  - mceachen 3y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_Phone https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_Phone had a camera on every corner of the front screen.
    - cooper_ganglia 3y ago
      Thanks for the link! I went in search of a product like this to read about it's development, but didn't find one in my short search. This was super convenient!
- LeonenTheDK 3y ago
  > Also four cameras could be used for cool 3d effects and AI to keep your eyes looking at the center of the screen. Nvidia has been doing the eyes with a single generic camera for over a year now: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/jan-2023-nvidia-broadcast-update/ https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/jan-2023-nvidia-br...

duxup 3y ago

> put it at the bottom so it points up my nose My Dell has a nose cam… it’s so unpleasant a view that it is unusable IMO.

wulfeet 3y ago

I've been using a M1 for well over a year, and until about two weeks ago I didn't know it had a notch. I don't follow the tech press, who I'm sure discussed it a great length when it was released. And I'm not personally invested in the Mac, it's owned by my employer. So I didn't notice the notch until my cursor disappeared while scrolling across the top of the screen.

TillE 3y ago
Yeah it's completely invisible if you use a background that's very dark near the top, I haven't thought about the notch in months.
bombcar 3y ago
The notch is really noticeable if you have a white menubar. I'd take a screenshot of it but ... ha!
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

bloopernova 3y ago

I use my mac docked and closed, so I hardly ever see the notch. However I think Apple should be able to use some fancy engineering to keep the camera as hidden as possible in the edge of the screen surround. Or use multiple fibre optic points embedded in the screen along with those fancy neural processors to create an eye-to-eye webcam.

swozey 3y ago

I've had an m1 max 14" since the week they first released 2-3 years ago and I actually COMPLETELY forgot there was a notch until I read this post. I can't think of like, one time when it was an issue but I also have probably used TopNotch since then.

thimp 3y ago

Haven't really noticed mine. Even after I've used it plugged into the studio display for a couple of days and go back to laptop mode, it's just such a non issue.

pdntspa 3y ago
I agree here. I thought it was dumb but the OS works around it really nicely; the only time it ever got in the way was with some non-native software
lloeki 3y ago
I live with it, the most annoying part being how big it is vertically. It has a weird psychological effect of screaming WASTED SPACE!!! at me, even though I rationally know that if the screen would start below would make for less space. It's constantly bothering me to the point that I set a background with a black area at the top so that it blends with the menubar. I don't have a problem with the menubar icons though because I keep that tidy and minimal. I punt on the issue through clamshell mode most of the time though. To each their own, and TBH I have worse pet peeves.
- devsda 3y ago
  The way I see it, we can think of the screen below the notch as actual display area and consider the area next to notch as bonus display dedicated for menubar. The bonus area goes dark when in fullscreen app. So, the app area is consistent in both modes. This way you don't have to feel like there's wasted space.
- j45 3y ago
  Is there a chance anything that us paid attention to grows in size. Would anyone be willing to go to an older laptop without it? Assuming not, what are the options? External displays? I find I usually look at the content on the screen not the webcam or the notch, but it could be different for others
  - felixding 3y ago

Fnoord 3y ago

I own a M1 MBP. What you wrote about notch isn't a fact but a (controversial) opinion. Some people feel very strongly about it in a negative way, but many don't care. Personally, I don't care much about notches, and if you can put the pixels very dark/black (ie. OLED) I don't think you should care either. With Settings -> Accessibility -> Reduce Transparency you can make the menubar very dark. But to be fair, miniLED isn't OLED. I am using Bartender to hide items in menubar. I did so before notch existed. Without it, I wouldn't be able to fit my menubar (with or without notch).

bombcar 3y ago
I prefer to think of it as two large full-color notches going upwards as compared to a small black notch coming down. Too bad they didn't increase the resolution of the display slightly for that.
- selectodude 3y ago
  They absolutely did though. The notched MacBooks are 15.5:10 instead of 16:10.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    I'm honestly amazed I didn't know that, perhaps Apple should have shipped the NotchBook Pro™ with the menubar below the notch, and everything above black, and had a setting you could change to turn it to how it is now.
    - Fnoord 3y ago
      There's some apps in the App Store which allow you to, on top of the accessibility setting I mentioned earlier. It isn't ideal. Let me put it this way: if too many people dislike the notch, I'm cool they go without it. Or have two versions. The issue simply doesn't bother me, I'm indifferent about it. MBPs have had much worse issues between 2016 and 2020.

lcnmrn 3y ago

I sold a M2 MBA and bought a M1 MBA because of the notch.

dur-randir 3y ago

>but the notch has to be the dumbest design decision in the history of laptops No, it had been the touch bar. There're multiply solutions for the notch, none had been imagined for that abomination.

mjcohen 3y ago
I got the original 13" M1 MPB and put some additional "buttons" on the touch bar. Sort of miss it on my 16" M1 MBP.

andrei_says_ 3y ago

The notch gives me a larger screen combined with a camera and a smaller body. I personally value these and the decision to use that real estate for the hardware camera is imo quite creative. I paid a few dollars for the bartender app which solves for the hidden apps. Haven’t thought about it since.

Groxx 3y ago

I really hate it. I lose menu bar applications and application menus behind it literally every single day. I don't mind that it exists and that some people prefer it to large bezels... I just wish there was a way to say "claim my screen is -X pixels and show me the full menu" like before. Without both requiring one app to be full screen and that crazy scaling mode that makes everything fuzzy.

renewedrebecca 3y ago
That’s literally possible… there’s some criteria that will force the display into that mode (although I can’t remember off hand what it is)
- Groxx 3y ago
  Full screen app + tell it to shrink (afaik only available if it doesn't natively declare support for the notch). And it achieves it by scaling the whole screen ever so slightly, ruining pixel offsets everywhere and making everything fuzzy, seemingly so it doesn't ever present a non-standard display ratio despite the notch being very non-standard already, and despite full screen apps already working on external monitors that can have any ratio. It's not an option anywhere else. Nor would I want that fuzzy mess anyway. It's such an insane design.
  - kalleboo 3y ago
    Incorrect System Settings > Displays > Advanced > Show resolutions list > Select the 16:9 resolution with slightly fewer vertical pixels than your current one
    - Groxx 3y ago
      Aah, and then also "show all resolutions" is revealed after that advanced toggle. Dang that's well hidden. Why isn't that just a toggle in the advanced section or something... Thank you! This is much better.

amanzi 3y ago

You're right about the dumb design decision. There's no good technical reason that it's so massive compared to the single tiny webcam. The only way it would have made any sense was if it also contained the FaceID array of cameras too. This was just Apple going all-in on the notch that was part of the "iconic" iPhone design. Now that the iPhone notch is on the way out, I expect they'll introduce the dynamic island to the MBP in a future update.

kstrauser 3y ago

If you look at it as "the notch took away part of the screen", it's annoying. I see it like "the notch gave me new chunks of screen that wouldn't have been there otherwise".

pompino 3y ago
A customer should care about looking at a retail product with their own POV, not someone else's. This is the classic "you're holding it wrong" response.
- SkyMarshal 3y ago
  It's more the classic glass half empty vs half full response. Although given the small size of the notch, it's more like 10% empty vs 90% full.
  - xattt 3y ago
    “Screen half black vs half lit up”
  - pompino 3y ago
    I don't see a problem with criticizing the one of richest companies in the world on legitimate issues, or holding them to a very high standard. They can defend themselves just fine. I'd give a smaller company much more leeway. I own several Apple products (often the ones I criticize the most are the ones I personally purchased and used long term), but I'm not part of the Apple "community" or other Apple fanbases.
- yungporko 3y ago
  no it's just a fact. before the notch, the parts of the screen either side of it were not screen, but now they are. the complaints about the notch literally boil down to "it's not enough extra screen".
  - pompino 3y ago
    The only "fact" here is that Apple is going to milk you twice. Once when they sold you a knowingly flawed design and again, when they finally develop the tech to eliminate the notch, Apple fans will happily line up to pay them again.

anais9 3y ago

Completely agree - I made https://notchbegone.com https://notchbegone.com to help mask it visually when it came out expecting Apple to quickly obviate via their own design updates and yet years later we're still having this conversation. My tinfoil hat take is that the true primary purpose of the notch is to drive upgrade purchases at some point in the future whenever serious technical advancements are waning.

porphyra 3y ago

I don't think the notch is inherently dumb. It's a great use of the space in the macOS menu bar that is otherwise usually wasted. Moreover, having a good webcam is very important to a lot of Macbook users who would not be able to tolerate grainier cameras or the nostril-peering bottom positioning on some XPS laptops. It is, however, super annoying that various implementation bugs have not been fixed after years.

ActorNightly 3y ago

>but the notch has to be the dumbest design decision in the history of laptops The virtual escape key on the touch bar, all while Apple was pushing their laptops as developer friendly, is magnitudes worse

mort96 3y ago

Just don't think of it as a 15.4:10ish screen with a hole cut out of it, think of it as a 16:10 screen with some extra space on top for the menu bar. Realistically, what you're proposing is to remove the part of the screen with the notch in it to make it a normal 16:10 screen, and tbh that seems like a straight-up downgrade. I do think the machine looks better with a dark menu bar in the "notched" area though. That's how I have my Asahi Linux system set up.

Miraste 3y ago
I don't believe those are the only options. Why is the notch so big? If they kept the webcam the same size and made it a hole punch in the display, instead of surrounding it with a giant blob that still can't do Face ID, it would solve the whole problem.
- Tagbert 3y ago
  Because there is more than just a camera. There is the camera, two sensors, and some mounting hardware. It all adds up to some space. The specific size doesn’t really matter especially if you use Bartender to properly manage the app icons. See the camera module here: https://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/img_0383-jpeg.2205366/ https://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/img_0383-jpeg.22053...
  - Miraste 3y ago
    I know, but the other two sensors are for color temperature and light level. There's no reason they couldn't be in the bezel or the bottom of the display, and they don't need that massive chunk just to mount a camera. Before Apple Silicon I always set the menu bar to autohide, and it bugs me unreasonably that I can't do that anymore.
- mort96 3y ago
  I agree that it certainly seems wider than necessary.

apple4ever 3y ago

> the notch has to be the dumbest design decision in the history of laptops Agreed. It's such a bad bad bad design. No reason to hide the camera. Just make the bezel taller. Its fine. It's just as bad as the notch/pill on the iPhone. Drives me crazy everytime I look at it. Can't wait til we move to a notch free world.

Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
> Can't wait til we move to a notch free world. Never gonna happen. Apple sales continue to grow despite the notch, so obviously users LOVE the notch. The notch is here until we can put a camera and any other sensors inside the screen without losing pixels.
- apple4ever 3y ago
  I understand its Apple's current policy, but you did contradict yourself by saying never gonna happen and it's only here until we can put sensors inside the screen. And I doubt users LOVE the notch. They tolerate the notch at best, and if you gave them a non-notch device, they'd instantly see the would hate the notch.
  - Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
    > And I doubt users LOVE the notch. The comment was supposed to be rather tongue-in-cheek. I'm poking fun at how companies will make a change to a product, people still buy the product, and the company then assumes that people must like the change. Fact is, people will buy the latest iPhone no matter what. They make unpopular changes and people buy them anyways.

__jonas 3y ago

Hm I don’t have one of those notch MacBooks but it kind of seems like a great idea to me if my understanding of how it works is correct. I usually use my apps in fullscreen, which hides the menu bar, this has the very annoying side effect that moving the cursor to the top of the screen (where a lot of apps have buttons) will make the menu bar drop down and cover the buttons. I am assuming a fullscreen app will not extend under the notch, so with this notch thing I imagine I could always have the menu bar visible on fullscreen apps without sacrificing screen real estate and without the annoying animation triggering when I want to interact with the upper part of the app. Can someone confirm it really works like this? I feel like it would be a huge improvement.

eastbound 3y ago
If that were true, it would be losing a centimeter off the too of the screen, wouldn’t it?
- __jonas 3y ago
  Would it? I wouldn't consider the bezel/notch area part of the screen, since I assume an app in fullscreen mode doesn't extend into that area anyways because how would they deal with UI elements that fall into the top center? I mean maybe it's a bit of mental gymnastics, of course it's technically screen space taken away, but I am guessing the top bezel also becomes thinner so it seems like a great use of space to me, feels like it would allow me to justify always having the menu bar visible without feeling like it being there is wasting my space (because nothing else can be there). And having the menu bar always visible + avoiding this animation is something I would love.
- nicoburns 3y ago
  You do lose a centimeter off the top of the screen, but luckily they added a centimeter to the screen (compared to the previous model) when they built it. So it's pretty strictly a win. The area of the screen below the notch is 16:10 resolution. The bar at the top is "extra".

naikrovek 3y ago

You can set screen resolutions which bring down the top of the screen to the bottom of the notch and leave everything else alone. You lose 64(?) pixels of vertical screen but the notch goes away.

ClassyJacket 3y ago

I could deal with a hole punch camera like on Android phones, or a Dynamic Island or something, but why on Earth does it need to be so big? The camera itself is tiny, and it's far bigger than the Dynamic Island despite containing only a camera, and not a depth sensor too. We get that gigantic black notch and don't even get FaceID. Is it something to do with the lid being thinner than an iPhone so the entire camera assembly needs a cutout rather than just the lens? That's the only reason I can think of. Personally, I'd rather even have a physical notch extending out from the edge of the screen, like a tab in the middle, than the current black cutout.