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There are also people who pretend like problems highlighted in the Bay Area and other metropolitan cities are unique to them. Yet every time it looks like those

There are also people who pretend like problems highlighted in the Bay Area and other metropolitan cities are unique to them. Yet every time it looks like those are just the first wave of the changes that are heading to other regions first. Like the wave of homelessness. People made fun of SF, then it spread to the broader Bay Area, then LA, then other parts of the country. Turns out the effects of income inequality and how it impacts housing are rippling through the US. While it may be too doomer, it’s worthwhile to listen and understand the struggles of people who aren’t you to understand what’s coming. Certainly home ownership is rarer even for millennials and Genz is likely going to have even lower rates (its a little too early to compare since they’re too young for it)

AlchemistCamp 3y ago
> ”Certainly home ownership is rarer even for millennials and Genz is likely going to have even lower rates” Looking at the data, certainly not: https://x.com/noahpinion/status/1649492485968891904?s=46&t=CRBDO2D7VnJVQhLZQofo4w https://x.com/noahpinion/status/1649492485968891904?s=46&t=C...
- vlovich123 3y ago
  25 is too young to start making those predictions I think. We won’t for a while
robertlagrant 3y ago
> People made fun of SF, then it spread to the broader Bay Area, then LA, then other parts of the country. Turns out the effects of income inequality and how it impacts housing are rippling through the US. These aren't automatic, though. Who's to say they aren't produced by policy that's often done first in SF first?
- nostrademons 3y ago
  The policy is usually in response to the problems, not vice versa. California is actually dysfunctionally democratic (with a small "d", not "Democratic"). The state constitution gives ballot initiatives powers that they don't have in many other states, and the state has a tradition of individual rights and political activism that means the citizenry isn't shy about using that. A lot of people in the rest of the country tend to think "Oh, that's just dysfunctional California politics, we'll vote in different policies and things will go differently for us." Yes, you will vote in different policies. No, things will not go differently for you. California voted in different policies too - remember that it's the source of the Reagan Revolution, the hippie generation, the Chinese Exclusion Act, all sorts of policies that took hold nationally but are now the antithesis of what California stands for. At the root of this is a misperception of the power of politics. Most ordinary people think that laws are laws and the people who make the laws have ultimate power. California (and U.S. history in general) proves that laws are reactions to specific social and demographic forces, and the laws reflect the shape of those forces. Economics drives politics and technology drives economics.
  - nradov 3y ago
    California is also dysfunctionally Democratic (big "D") in that all elected state level offices have gone to Democrats for the last several election cycles. Because the Republican Party has imploded and third parties have failed to gain traction we now live in a single party state. Politicians are selected by Democratic Party leaders and are no longer accountable to voters in any meaningful way. This problem isn't particular to the Democratic Party. Other states now have single party Republican governments with similar levels of dysfunction and corruption.
    - vlovich123 3y ago
      The implosion is because the top two system in California ensures that Republican candidates never even get on the ballot because the GOP is so unpopular. The top two system by the way was a popular ballot initiative championed by Schwarzenegger to remove the gridlock from the state and remove the power of individual parties. Ironically Schwarzenegger came to power because of shenanigans the Bush administration and Enron were playing with California’s power grid to remove Gray Davis, a popular up and comer who could be a threat. So in essence, your complaint that only democrats win in California and somehow that’s because of the Democratic Party is ironic because single party rule in California is due to direct efforts by Republicans to make it thus. It just turned out that the federal politics of the GOP shifted the state very solidly blue and turns out single party rule by Democrats seems to be quite popular given how the state flourished in the years following.
      - robertlagrant 3y ago
        > So in essence, your complaint that only democrats win in California and somehow that’s because of the Democratic Party is ironic because single party rule in California is due to direct efforts by Republicans to make it thus There was no complaint. I don't see the point in such a partisan way of thinking. > single party rule by Democrats seems to be quite popular given how the state flourished in the years following This doesn't seem to be the case now. Lots of people are leaving California, as far as I can tell[0]. [0] https://www.ppic.org/blog/whos-leaving-california-and-whos-moving-in https://www.ppic.org/blog/whos-leaving-california-and-whos-m...
pc86 3y ago
A lot of problems highlighted in the Bay Are and other [insanely expensive, dense urban areas in the US] are unique to them. Nobody is calmly walking through a Walgreens in western Minnesota shoving everything they can into bags and walking out the front door while 30 people record it. Nobody is putting glitter bombs in bags for news articles in rural Missouri. Maybe shifts in housing dynamics happen first in cities then spreads to the suburbs, then the exurbs, then rural areas. Or maybe it's just due to how cities are governed, how many people live there, and how much new housing you get in any one year?
- nostrademons 3y ago
  Bay Area is usually just 10-15 years ahead of the rest of the country, because it's a region that culturally tends to embrace the future (good and bad) and run toward it. Bay Area in 2000 was complaining about illegal immigration, bilingual education, and the lights not staying on, all of which are contemporary issues facing the rest of America from 2015 onward. Bay Area in 2010 was in relative boom times from the tech industry, which again is spreading nationwide as tech jobs start getting more dispersed (though it may reverse thanks to RTO). Starting in 2012, housing prices became utterly unaffordable, which again started spreading nationwide around 2022. Give it another 5-10 years and yes, people will probably be walking through a Walgreens in western Minnesota shoving everything they can into their bags.
  - mensetmanusman 3y ago
    Embracing the future as if culture has a directional arrow...:. hint: it doesn't
  - thfuran 3y ago
    >the lights not staying on, all of which are contemporary issues facing the rest of America from 2015 onward Texas is hardly the rest of America.
    - vlovich123 3y ago
      To be fair the lights not staying on in California was a local problem and not a portend of things to come, but ironically caused by a Texas company that was committing insane levels of unrelated fraud and in this case was exploiting a loop hole in the energy grid to shut down their California plants in times of high demand to cause high purchase prices to import from their Texas plants. It was allowed because it was politically convenient - they were tied into Bush’s inner circle and the energy problems were convenient in making Gray Davis unpopular and causing his recall to then install a Republican governor by the name of Arnold instead. Ironically Arnold created reforms within the political structure of California to solidify Democratic control of the state. If you’re not familiar with that, look up how Enron fucked with the California power grid and the Bush administration prevented California from discovering it nor making changes to stabilize the grid (or something along those lines - I may have gotten some of the details wrong).
caeril 3y ago
Yes, urban hellscape problems tends to spread to other urban hellscapes, but there exist places to live other than urban hellscapes. There's a peculiar form of blindness that strikes the Urbanite, as if there are no other places to live. The people who live in flyover country are barely even recognizable as human, so you might as well ask me to move to Mars! How the hell am I going to be seen in public drinking my $12 microbrews or pretending to appreciate the Moma so that other people know I'm the correct class of person? God, what would my parents think? I'd rather die than live there, so that place doesn't even exist for me.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  those microbrews cost more than $12 now mon ami
- achenet 3y ago
  I live in a mid-sized European city right now, which I'm sure explains a lot of the bias in my response but there do exist relatively affordable cities with a good quality of life, and I'd rather live in a place where I can walk to the supermarket and the pharmacy and the town center rather than have to drive everywhere. High population density also (generally) means more social activities, which can be important for some people (like myself). Living in a rural area kinda scares me because I'm afraid I'd be quite lonely. On top of that, for those of us who don't have the privilege to remote work, living in a city is often necessary to have a job.
  - vlovich123 3y ago
    How’s the situation in European cities? I’ve also wondered if many of the problems are culturally specific to American views on individualism and capitalism and distaste for socialism given how similar many European cities are to large American cities with a major difference being social and cultural norms.
- tivert 3y ago
  > There's a peculiar form of blindness that strikes the Urbanite, as if there are no other places to live. And famously illustrated! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/View_of_the_World_from_9th_Avenue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/View_of_the_World_from_9th_Ave...

AlchemistCamp 3y ago

> ”Certainly home ownership is rarer even for millennials and Genz is likely going to have even lower rates” Looking at the data, certainly not: https://x.com/noahpinion/status/1649492485968891904?s=46&t=CRBDO2D7VnJVQhLZQofo4w https://x.com/noahpinion/status/1649492485968891904?s=46&t=C...

vlovich123 3y ago
25 is too young to start making those predictions I think. We won’t for a while

robertlagrant 3y ago

> People made fun of SF, then it spread to the broader Bay Area, then LA, then other parts of the country. Turns out the effects of income inequality and how it impacts housing are rippling through the US. These aren't automatic, though. Who's to say they aren't produced by policy that's often done first in SF first?

nostrademons 3y ago
The policy is usually in response to the problems, not vice versa. California is actually dysfunctionally democratic (with a small "d", not "Democratic"). The state constitution gives ballot initiatives powers that they don't have in many other states, and the state has a tradition of individual rights and political activism that means the citizenry isn't shy about using that. A lot of people in the rest of the country tend to think "Oh, that's just dysfunctional California politics, we'll vote in different policies and things will go differently for us." Yes, you will vote in different policies. No, things will not go differently for you. California voted in different policies too - remember that it's the source of the Reagan Revolution, the hippie generation, the Chinese Exclusion Act, all sorts of policies that took hold nationally but are now the antithesis of what California stands for. At the root of this is a misperception of the power of politics. Most ordinary people think that laws are laws and the people who make the laws have ultimate power. California (and U.S. history in general) proves that laws are reactions to specific social and demographic forces, and the laws reflect the shape of those forces. Economics drives politics and technology drives economics.
- nradov 3y ago
  California is also dysfunctionally Democratic (big "D") in that all elected state level offices have gone to Democrats for the last several election cycles. Because the Republican Party has imploded and third parties have failed to gain traction we now live in a single party state. Politicians are selected by Democratic Party leaders and are no longer accountable to voters in any meaningful way. This problem isn't particular to the Democratic Party. Other states now have single party Republican governments with similar levels of dysfunction and corruption.
  - vlovich123 3y ago
    The implosion is because the top two system in California ensures that Republican candidates never even get on the ballot because the GOP is so unpopular. The top two system by the way was a popular ballot initiative championed by Schwarzenegger to remove the gridlock from the state and remove the power of individual parties. Ironically Schwarzenegger came to power because of shenanigans the Bush administration and Enron were playing with California’s power grid to remove Gray Davis, a popular up and comer who could be a threat. So in essence, your complaint that only democrats win in California and somehow that’s because of the Democratic Party is ironic because single party rule in California is due to direct efforts by Republicans to make it thus. It just turned out that the federal politics of the GOP shifted the state very solidly blue and turns out single party rule by Democrats seems to be quite popular given how the state flourished in the years following.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      > So in essence, your complaint that only democrats win in California and somehow that’s because of the Democratic Party is ironic because single party rule in California is due to direct efforts by Republicans to make it thus There was no complaint. I don't see the point in such a partisan way of thinking. > single party rule by Democrats seems to be quite popular given how the state flourished in the years following This doesn't seem to be the case now. Lots of people are leaving California, as far as I can tell[0]. [0] https://www.ppic.org/blog/whos-leaving-california-and-whos-moving-in https://www.ppic.org/blog/whos-leaving-california-and-whos-m...

pc86 3y ago

A lot of problems highlighted in the Bay Are and other [insanely expensive, dense urban areas in the US] are unique to them. Nobody is calmly walking through a Walgreens in western Minnesota shoving everything they can into bags and walking out the front door while 30 people record it. Nobody is putting glitter bombs in bags for news articles in rural Missouri. Maybe shifts in housing dynamics happen first in cities then spreads to the suburbs, then the exurbs, then rural areas. Or maybe it's just due to how cities are governed, how many people live there, and how much new housing you get in any one year?

nostrademons 3y ago
Bay Area is usually just 10-15 years ahead of the rest of the country, because it's a region that culturally tends to embrace the future (good and bad) and run toward it. Bay Area in 2000 was complaining about illegal immigration, bilingual education, and the lights not staying on, all of which are contemporary issues facing the rest of America from 2015 onward. Bay Area in 2010 was in relative boom times from the tech industry, which again is spreading nationwide as tech jobs start getting more dispersed (though it may reverse thanks to RTO). Starting in 2012, housing prices became utterly unaffordable, which again started spreading nationwide around 2022. Give it another 5-10 years and yes, people will probably be walking through a Walgreens in western Minnesota shoving everything they can into their bags.
- mensetmanusman 3y ago
  Embracing the future as if culture has a directional arrow...:. hint: it doesn't
- thfuran 3y ago
  >the lights not staying on, all of which are contemporary issues facing the rest of America from 2015 onward Texas is hardly the rest of America.
  - vlovich123 3y ago
    To be fair the lights not staying on in California was a local problem and not a portend of things to come, but ironically caused by a Texas company that was committing insane levels of unrelated fraud and in this case was exploiting a loop hole in the energy grid to shut down their California plants in times of high demand to cause high purchase prices to import from their Texas plants. It was allowed because it was politically convenient - they were tied into Bush’s inner circle and the energy problems were convenient in making Gray Davis unpopular and causing his recall to then install a Republican governor by the name of Arnold instead. Ironically Arnold created reforms within the political structure of California to solidify Democratic control of the state. If you’re not familiar with that, look up how Enron fucked with the California power grid and the Bush administration prevented California from discovering it nor making changes to stabilize the grid (or something along those lines - I may have gotten some of the details wrong).

caeril 3y ago

Yes, urban hellscape problems tends to spread to other urban hellscapes, but there exist places to live other than urban hellscapes. There's a peculiar form of blindness that strikes the Urbanite, as if there are no other places to live. The people who live in flyover country are barely even recognizable as human, so you might as well ask me to move to Mars! How the hell am I going to be seen in public drinking my $12 microbrews or pretending to appreciate the Moma so that other people know I'm the correct class of person? God, what would my parents think? I'd rather die than live there, so that place doesn't even exist for me.

red-iron-pine 3y ago
those microbrews cost more than $12 now mon ami
achenet 3y ago
I live in a mid-sized European city right now, which I'm sure explains a lot of the bias in my response but there do exist relatively affordable cities with a good quality of life, and I'd rather live in a place where I can walk to the supermarket and the pharmacy and the town center rather than have to drive everywhere. High population density also (generally) means more social activities, which can be important for some people (like myself). Living in a rural area kinda scares me because I'm afraid I'd be quite lonely. On top of that, for those of us who don't have the privilege to remote work, living in a city is often necessary to have a job.
- vlovich123 3y ago
  How’s the situation in European cities? I’ve also wondered if many of the problems are culturally specific to American views on individualism and capitalism and distaste for socialism given how similar many European cities are to large American cities with a major difference being social and cultural norms.
tivert 3y ago
> There's a peculiar form of blindness that strikes the Urbanite, as if there are no other places to live. And famously illustrated! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/View_of_the_World_from_9th_Avenue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/View_of_the_World_from_9th_Ave...