4 ms·

I initially read this comment to mean “we wanted larger family, the secular world doesn’t do that, we became religious and we’re happy”. Am I understanding that

I initially read this comment to mean “we wanted larger family, the secular world doesn’t do that, we became religious and we’re happy”. Am I understanding that correctly? If so, this strikes me as a very novel argument in favor of religion, and is more convincing to me than most others. I do wonder what I’d say if/when people question the fervor of my belief though, if I truly converted just for a community with larger families. I imagine “I believe in big families” wouldn’t cut it.

shepherdjerred 3y ago
> I do wonder what I’d say if/when people question the fervor of my belief though, if I truly converted just for a community with larger families. I imagine “I believe in big families” wouldn’t cut it. There's nothing wrong with that. Nobody should have a problem with you wanting to be a part of a church community, even if you aren't a "real" believer.
- mihalycsaba 3y ago
  People just want to be part of a community. Most of the time the only available open communities are church communities, so that's better than nothing.
  - shepherdjerred 3y ago
    Yes, I totally agree. I'm simply saying that you don't have to be uber religious to be a part of a church community. A good church should make you feel accepted no matter who you are. There are perhaps exceptions, e.g. if you are intentionally trying to harm the church or members of it, but otherwise the church should accept you as you are -- "true" believer or not. In practice you will probably find a lot of "bad" churches, so you'll probably have to shop around a little bit.
- pinkmuffinere 3y ago
  > Nobody should have a problem with you wanting to be a part of a church community, even if you aren't a "real" believer. I really appreciate this view, but certainly some people do have a problem with it. I think it would be especially awkward if you spend a significant amount of your life there, raise kids, etc, but never claim the religion is true. It almost sounds like a cringe-comedy movie
  - shepherdjerred 3y ago
    If your values and actions align with the religious community, and you're okay being around people who are religious/spiritual, I believe it can be mutually beneficial. If your values and actions don't align with the religious community, then you should still be accepted, but if you don't have belief, then it's unlikely you'll stay for long. ^ note: by "should" I mean that, at least in my view, a "real" Christian should be accepting and not judge others. In practice nobody lives up to this, but it can at least inform how you should feel, e.g. if you feel judged it's saying more about others than it says about you. ^ double note: "real" Christian is incredibly hard to define. The Bible can be interpreted any way you want. Ultimately what guides me is trying to do what I think is right, using the Bible as one source of information.
    - pinkmuffinere 3y ago
      Absolutely agree with everything you said. The biblical Jesus sets a high standard that is impossible to live up to. Even though I don’t believe now, I love people that try to live to that standard, and I aspire to as well
      - paulryanrogers 3y ago
        Except the whole dooming most of humanity to external lakes of fire. And maybe terrorizing kids with the threat that they'll commit the unforgivable sin, and be destined for said lake of fire
        pinkmuffinere 3y ago
        lol ya, those are part of the reason I’m no longer Christian. Shepherdjerred didn’t discuss those in his comment though
  - RankingMember 3y ago
    > cringe-comedy movie Church Crashers
toasterlovin 3y ago
> I initially read this comment to mean “we wanted larger family, the secular world doesn’t do that, we became religious and we’re happy”. Am I understanding that correctly? Kinda. We were open to believing in God. But the start of our journey was just realizing the secular world had nothing to offer us. Then we met a religious homeschooling family w/ 5 kids and they gave us a glimpse of what was possible. So we started swimming in that direction and it just kept getting better the farther out we swam. > I do wonder what I’d say if/when people question the fervor of my belief though, if I truly converted just for a community with larger families. I imagine “I believe in big families” wouldn’t cut it. Here’s the thing: if you’re not a militant atheist and you start spending a lot of time around sincerely religious people who you like, you’ll end up believing sincerely yourself. Since you’re secular, I’ll explain it like this: we’re evolved to cohere around a shared system of belief and the appropriate mental machinery will kick in as part of becoming embedded in a religious community. And that’s what I used to believe. But now I know those were just the breadcrumbs I needed to find my way.
- kelnos 3y ago
  Oof, my experience is the exact opposite. I was raised Catholic, and my family attended mass every week. I realized I didn't believe in god in my early teens. For many years after that I really wished I could believe, tried to believe. My parents had me enrolled in CCD (for those of you not Catholic, that's basically the Catholic version of what's colloquially known as "Sunday School") through 8th grade. I participated in some of my church's youth groups, and was friends with quite a few religious people. But it just didn't work. I wasn't a militant atheist; I just questioned things, and was frustrated when my elders would shut me down and hand-wave my questions away. I gave up in my early 20s. That was 20+ years ago. I'm still an atheist. I don't have a problem with religious people, unless they try to force their beliefs on others (especially when they try to use the political and legal process to do so). But most folks seem to just want to live and let live. But I no longer think there's something wrong with me, or long to be "normal" like my peers and believe in a god. I can't imagine ever believing, regardless of what communities I find myself a member of.
  - 3y ago
navane 3y ago
It's the strong believers that create schisms. Just hang around and nod -- those are your favorite believers.

shepherdjerred 3y ago

> I do wonder what I’d say if/when people question the fervor of my belief though, if I truly converted just for a community with larger families. I imagine “I believe in big families” wouldn’t cut it. There's nothing wrong with that. Nobody should have a problem with you wanting to be a part of a church community, even if you aren't a "real" believer.

mihalycsaba 3y ago
People just want to be part of a community. Most of the time the only available open communities are church communities, so that's better than nothing.
- shepherdjerred 3y ago
  Yes, I totally agree. I'm simply saying that you don't have to be uber religious to be a part of a church community. A good church should make you feel accepted no matter who you are. There are perhaps exceptions, e.g. if you are intentionally trying to harm the church or members of it, but otherwise the church should accept you as you are -- "true" believer or not. In practice you will probably find a lot of "bad" churches, so you'll probably have to shop around a little bit.
pinkmuffinere 3y ago
> Nobody should have a problem with you wanting to be a part of a church community, even if you aren't a "real" believer. I really appreciate this view, but certainly some people do have a problem with it. I think it would be especially awkward if you spend a significant amount of your life there, raise kids, etc, but never claim the religion is true. It almost sounds like a cringe-comedy movie
- shepherdjerred 3y ago
  If your values and actions align with the religious community, and you're okay being around people who are religious/spiritual, I believe it can be mutually beneficial. If your values and actions don't align with the religious community, then you should still be accepted, but if you don't have belief, then it's unlikely you'll stay for long. ^ note: by "should" I mean that, at least in my view, a "real" Christian should be accepting and not judge others. In practice nobody lives up to this, but it can at least inform how you should feel, e.g. if you feel judged it's saying more about others than it says about you. ^ double note: "real" Christian is incredibly hard to define. The Bible can be interpreted any way you want. Ultimately what guides me is trying to do what I think is right, using the Bible as one source of information.
  - pinkmuffinere 3y ago
    Absolutely agree with everything you said. The biblical Jesus sets a high standard that is impossible to live up to. Even though I don’t believe now, I love people that try to live to that standard, and I aspire to as well
    - paulryanrogers 3y ago
      Except the whole dooming most of humanity to external lakes of fire. And maybe terrorizing kids with the threat that they'll commit the unforgivable sin, and be destined for said lake of fire
      - pinkmuffinere 3y ago
        lol ya, those are part of the reason I’m no longer Christian. Shepherdjerred didn’t discuss those in his comment though
- RankingMember 3y ago
  > cringe-comedy movie Church Crashers

toasterlovin 3y ago

> I initially read this comment to mean “we wanted larger family, the secular world doesn’t do that, we became religious and we’re happy”. Am I understanding that correctly? Kinda. We were open to believing in God. But the start of our journey was just realizing the secular world had nothing to offer us. Then we met a religious homeschooling family w/ 5 kids and they gave us a glimpse of what was possible. So we started swimming in that direction and it just kept getting better the farther out we swam. > I do wonder what I’d say if/when people question the fervor of my belief though, if I truly converted just for a community with larger families. I imagine “I believe in big families” wouldn’t cut it. Here’s the thing: if you’re not a militant atheist and you start spending a lot of time around sincerely religious people who you like, you’ll end up believing sincerely yourself. Since you’re secular, I’ll explain it like this: we’re evolved to cohere around a shared system of belief and the appropriate mental machinery will kick in as part of becoming embedded in a religious community. And that’s what I used to believe. But now I know those were just the breadcrumbs I needed to find my way.

kelnos 3y ago
Oof, my experience is the exact opposite. I was raised Catholic, and my family attended mass every week. I realized I didn't believe in god in my early teens. For many years after that I really wished I could believe, tried to believe. My parents had me enrolled in CCD (for those of you not Catholic, that's basically the Catholic version of what's colloquially known as "Sunday School") through 8th grade. I participated in some of my church's youth groups, and was friends with quite a few religious people. But it just didn't work. I wasn't a militant atheist; I just questioned things, and was frustrated when my elders would shut me down and hand-wave my questions away. I gave up in my early 20s. That was 20+ years ago. I'm still an atheist. I don't have a problem with religious people, unless they try to force their beliefs on others (especially when they try to use the political and legal process to do so). But most folks seem to just want to live and let live. But I no longer think there's something wrong with me, or long to be "normal" like my peers and believe in a god. I can't imagine ever believing, regardless of what communities I find myself a member of.
- 3y ago

navane 3y ago

It's the strong believers that create schisms. Just hang around and nod -- those are your favorite believers.