5 ms·

If you believe tickets are not correctly priced to begin with then they simply make the market more efficient and capture this delta between supply and demand.

thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
I'm sure it's just that easy.
- ndriscoll 3y ago
  Isn't it? Couldn't they hold a Dutch auction for tickets, and then if they sold out at too high a price and really wanted to give more access to all of their fans and not just rich ones, add more shows to the tour until tickets clear at an acceptable price? The Dutch auction mechanic would mean that scalpers take on massive risk because anyone willing to pay a higher price would've already had the chance to do so. The artist is able to capture the premium from rich people who want to assure their ticket purchase instead of letting scalpers get that money.
  - thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
    It's almost like there is a reason why they don't do that. But what could it be? https://www.google.com/search?q=angry+at+ticket+prices https://www.google.com/search?q=angry+at+ticket+prices
    - gruez 3y ago
      In other words, the artists are leaving money on the table (by underpricing the tickets), and then fans get mad that other people are capturing said money.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > artists are leaving money on the table (by underpricing the tickets) Artists and ticket vendors underprice tickets to assure sold-out venues: they're choosing to buy lower earnings volatility. The notion that tickets are underpriced to make them accessible is tripe.
    - ndriscoll 3y ago
      Again, if they want to make it more accessible, they can add more shows to increase supply. They have high certainty that they can make lots of money adding more shows because existing ones have sold out (assuming things are planned in advance so they can book the venues longer). Otherwise people are just mad at the fact that there's lots of demand and people are willing to pay more than them for tickets. The overall prices might also decrease just because scalping becomes more risky[0], even if it could still be profitable. [0] You need to buy all tickets for scalping to work. Otherwise the official source is constantly becoming cheaper than the price you paid. And your ability to sell to whales is limited. Even if they would've potentially paid up to $10k but they wait, they might decide to buy in once it hits $2k because they expect the price to settle near $1k and don't want to risk missing a ticket. So if you buy in at $1k, you've already missed selling to them. So you can only really sell to people with low margin over your buying price, and if you overshoot the clearing price, you might take a huge loss. So risk-adjusted, scalping becomes unprofitable, and scalpers exit the market, which allows whales to bid under their true maximum price they'd pay, lowering overall prices vs. a market with scalpers.
      - thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
        Arguing with you would be like arguing with a libertarian. There is no point arguing with someone so detached from reality.
        ndriscoll 3y ago
        Detached from reality is selling something way below its value and being mad that it gets resold at the correct price. This is basic economics. It's also easily avoidable by holding an auction with the correct ruleset for the outcome you want. If you wanted to appear less greedy, you could also do something similar to what the government does for bonds: everyone submits the highest price they're willing to pay. Take the top N offers, and all of those people get tickets at the lowest price out of the top N. So you're encouraged to bid what the ticket is worth to you because you almost certainly will end up paying less than that. If 50,000 people (modulo subdivisions for seat distance) agree a ticket is worth at least that much, then ipso facto that's what it's worth. Again it's scalper resistant because anyone you could resell to already got a ticket at the same price you did. Point is there are plenty of documented auction styles to choose from depending on exactly what properties they want. It isn't hard. They obviously prefer scalpers exist.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Couldn't they hold a Dutch auction for tickets Yes, as well as directly distribute tickets to fans. It isn't done because behind scalpers is a massive performance industry.
    - thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
      Ding ding ding!
  - thatguysaguy 3y ago
    I'd love to see something like that. The world needs more auctions tbh.
    - thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
      People, as non rational actors, hate auction markets. Which is why this doesn't happen.
  - nradov 3y ago
    As a practical matter it's tough to add more shows to a major tour (i.e. something that requires a convoy of multiple coaches and heavy trucks to carry all the people and gear) as a response to high demand. The venue may not be available, travel is already planned to the next city, and performers need rest. The tour manager basically has to build in the option for extra dates in particular cities from the start.
    - ndriscoll 3y ago
      It would require additional lead time definitely. But on the other hand, if someone is willing to pay $1000 for Taylor Swift tickets, they're probably also willing to participate in a pre-sale without guarantees or concrete dates before things are booked. The idea also applies to things like GPUs and Playstations where they expect to sell out. Start the price high and decrease it over time as you get additional supply. Announce ahead of time that this is your plan along with what the eventual target price is, so people willing to pay the premium to get it early can do so, and others know they just need to wait and the price will drop.
      - thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
        "internet commenter realizes that the optics industry cares about optics"
        ndriscoll 3y ago
        So you agree scalpers provide value? The industry cares more about optics than providing limited goods and services to those who value them the most (i.e. are willing to pay the most). Scalpers correct the market (or act as a front for the industry to set prices correctly while blaming a bad guy that totally isn't just them under another name), and ensure that someone who really wants to see Taylor Swift and is willing to pay $10k for a ticket can do so. Taylor can always do more shows to increase supply and lower prices. Or do an auction and give all sales above $x to charity so it's clear that it's not about greed and is about stopping the evil scalpers.
- digitcatphd 3y ago
  Exactly, this is why scalpers exist. People have tried to disintermediate them many times unsuccessfully. If I had to guess, it is that event companies / hospitality / ect. are not in the business of beating scalpers at their own game and as long as they price below the scalpers, scalpers will take this risk for them, if tickets are released at prices above scalpers, they are taking the risk of not selling to anyone. Perhaps more AI/ML accessibility will beat this, but it will only threaten scalper profits as there will always be a margin of error.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

thisgoesnowhere 3y ago

I'm sure it's just that easy.

ndriscoll 3y ago
Isn't it? Couldn't they hold a Dutch auction for tickets, and then if they sold out at too high a price and really wanted to give more access to all of their fans and not just rich ones, add more shows to the tour until tickets clear at an acceptable price? The Dutch auction mechanic would mean that scalpers take on massive risk because anyone willing to pay a higher price would've already had the chance to do so. The artist is able to capture the premium from rich people who want to assure their ticket purchase instead of letting scalpers get that money.
- thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
  It's almost like there is a reason why they don't do that. But what could it be? https://www.google.com/search?q=angry+at+ticket+prices https://www.google.com/search?q=angry+at+ticket+prices
  - gruez 3y ago
    In other words, the artists are leaving money on the table (by underpricing the tickets), and then fans get mad that other people are capturing said money.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > artists are leaving money on the table (by underpricing the tickets) Artists and ticket vendors underprice tickets to assure sold-out venues: they're choosing to buy lower earnings volatility. The notion that tickets are underpriced to make them accessible is tripe.
  - ndriscoll 3y ago
    Again, if they want to make it more accessible, they can add more shows to increase supply. They have high certainty that they can make lots of money adding more shows because existing ones have sold out (assuming things are planned in advance so they can book the venues longer). Otherwise people are just mad at the fact that there's lots of demand and people are willing to pay more than them for tickets. The overall prices might also decrease just because scalping becomes more risky[0], even if it could still be profitable. [0] You need to buy all tickets for scalping to work. Otherwise the official source is constantly becoming cheaper than the price you paid. And your ability to sell to whales is limited. Even if they would've potentially paid up to $10k but they wait, they might decide to buy in once it hits $2k because they expect the price to settle near $1k and don't want to risk missing a ticket. So if you buy in at $1k, you've already missed selling to them. So you can only really sell to people with low margin over your buying price, and if you overshoot the clearing price, you might take a huge loss. So risk-adjusted, scalping becomes unprofitable, and scalpers exit the market, which allows whales to bid under their true maximum price they'd pay, lowering overall prices vs. a market with scalpers.
    - thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
      Arguing with you would be like arguing with a libertarian. There is no point arguing with someone so detached from reality.
      - ndriscoll 3y ago
        Detached from reality is selling something way below its value and being mad that it gets resold at the correct price. This is basic economics. It's also easily avoidable by holding an auction with the correct ruleset for the outcome you want. If you wanted to appear less greedy, you could also do something similar to what the government does for bonds: everyone submits the highest price they're willing to pay. Take the top N offers, and all of those people get tickets at the lowest price out of the top N. So you're encouraged to bid what the ticket is worth to you because you almost certainly will end up paying less than that. If 50,000 people (modulo subdivisions for seat distance) agree a ticket is worth at least that much, then ipso facto that's what it's worth. Again it's scalper resistant because anyone you could resell to already got a ticket at the same price you did. Point is there are plenty of documented auction styles to choose from depending on exactly what properties they want. It isn't hard. They obviously prefer scalpers exist.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Couldn't they hold a Dutch auction for tickets Yes, as well as directly distribute tickets to fans. It isn't done because behind scalpers is a massive performance industry.
  - thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
    Ding ding ding!
- thatguysaguy 3y ago
  I'd love to see something like that. The world needs more auctions tbh.
  - thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
    People, as non rational actors, hate auction markets. Which is why this doesn't happen.
- nradov 3y ago
  As a practical matter it's tough to add more shows to a major tour (i.e. something that requires a convoy of multiple coaches and heavy trucks to carry all the people and gear) as a response to high demand. The venue may not be available, travel is already planned to the next city, and performers need rest. The tour manager basically has to build in the option for extra dates in particular cities from the start.
  - ndriscoll 3y ago
    It would require additional lead time definitely. But on the other hand, if someone is willing to pay $1000 for Taylor Swift tickets, they're probably also willing to participate in a pre-sale without guarantees or concrete dates before things are booked. The idea also applies to things like GPUs and Playstations where they expect to sell out. Start the price high and decrease it over time as you get additional supply. Announce ahead of time that this is your plan along with what the eventual target price is, so people willing to pay the premium to get it early can do so, and others know they just need to wait and the price will drop.
    - thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
      "internet commenter realizes that the optics industry cares about optics"
      - ndriscoll 3y ago
        So you agree scalpers provide value? The industry cares more about optics than providing limited goods and services to those who value them the most (i.e. are willing to pay the most). Scalpers correct the market (or act as a front for the industry to set prices correctly while blaming a bad guy that totally isn't just them under another name), and ensure that someone who really wants to see Taylor Swift and is willing to pay $10k for a ticket can do so. Taylor can always do more shows to increase supply and lower prices. Or do an auction and give all sales above $x to charity so it's clear that it's not about greed and is about stopping the evil scalpers.
digitcatphd 3y ago
Exactly, this is why scalpers exist. People have tried to disintermediate them many times unsuccessfully. If I had to guess, it is that event companies / hospitality / ect. are not in the business of beating scalpers at their own game and as long as they price below the scalpers, scalpers will take this risk for them, if tickets are released at prices above scalpers, they are taking the risk of not selling to anyone. Perhaps more AI/ML accessibility will beat this, but it will only threaten scalper profits as there will always be a margin of error.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]