7 ms·

"no, scalpers are good actually"

renewiltord 3y ago
They just walk the frontier of price-time preferences. And time preference is just the same as any other preference. For people with high time preference and low price sensitivity, scalpers are good. If tickets were auctioned it wouldn't be a problem. For Electric Forest you get an early line if you've been before, which you could turn into either a separate auction or a discount. Scalpers that corner the market can do things that are bad for everyone but them, of course, but till they have pricing power they provide utility to buyers.
- sottol 3y ago
  Do they though when they have armies of bots snatching up released tranches within seconds? Not saying this always happens but it's also not as simple as "people are comfy and thus pay more later". With profits/volume comes "professionalization" (aka "scale") and the regular Joe gets left behind because they're just in it for one ticket and not thousand(s?).
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > the regular Joe gets left behind because they're just in it for one ticket I'm surprised neither Spotify nor Apple has attempted to launch a TicketMaster competitor (or alliance). We have the technology to distribute tickets to listeners first.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      I might be wrong, but I think either you create a two-tier music industry, where Apple Music subscribers can get to concerts first, or you allow anyone to book, at which point you have the same problem Ticketmaster does.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > you create a two-tier music industry, where Apple Music subscribers can get to concerts first, or you allow anyone to book You release based on listening history and e.g. merch purchases. If you limit early release to accounts tied to a personal credit card, you'll limit the scalpers' scale.
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        Is that the two-tier option?
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> "no, scalpers are good actually" If you think meth is good, sure, that's a valid reading of my comment. Also, I don't know of any multi-millionaire ticket scalpers. They seem more a convenient bogeyman for the ticket-industrial complex than a real problem.
- thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
  Stubhub is a small family business bootstrapped by hard working folks just like you or I. My bad for saying they are value negative.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Stubhub is a small family business bootstrapped by hard working folks just like you or I. My bad for saying they are value negative. The impliciation that only small outfits can be value positive requires rejecting economies of scale. Which is a fundamental misunderstanding of economics compounded by its limited scope: the entertainment complex to which scalpers attach is massive. The shows which scalpers are attracted to are massive. Small shows don't get scalped.
    - thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
      I was responding to your astute observation not making a broad comment about economies of scale. > I don't know of any multi-millionaire ticket scalpers.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        Is StubHub a ticket scalper?
        thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
        You are making the argument that "technically" stub hub only enables scalpers but is not actually a scalper themselves. Wonder how far the goalposts have to move before you realize how embarrassing this is for your ideology.
digitcatphd 3y ago
If you believe tickets are not correctly priced to begin with then they simply make the market more efficient and capture this delta between supply and demand.
- thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
  I'm sure it's just that easy.
  - ndriscoll 3y ago
    Isn't it? Couldn't they hold a Dutch auction for tickets, and then if they sold out at too high a price and really wanted to give more access to all of their fans and not just rich ones, add more shows to the tour until tickets clear at an acceptable price? The Dutch auction mechanic would mean that scalpers take on massive risk because anyone willing to pay a higher price would've already had the chance to do so. The artist is able to capture the premium from rich people who want to assure their ticket purchase instead of letting scalpers get that money.
    - thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
      It's almost like there is a reason why they don't do that. But what could it be? https://www.google.com/search?q=angry+at+ticket+prices https://www.google.com/search?q=angry+at+ticket+prices
      - gruez 3y ago
        In other words, the artists are leaving money on the table (by underpricing the tickets), and then fans get mad that other people are capturing said money.
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > artists are leaving money on the table (by underpricing the tickets) Artists and ticket vendors underprice tickets to assure sold-out venues: they're choosing to buy lower earnings volatility. The notion that tickets are underpriced to make them accessible is tripe.

They just walk the frontier of price-time preferences. And time preference is just the same as any other preference. For people with high time preference and low price sensitivity, scalpers are good. If tickets were auctioned it wouldn't be a problem. For Electric Forest you get an early line if you've been before, which you could turn into either a separate auction or a discount. Scalpers that corner the market can do things that are bad for everyone but them, of course, but till they have pricing power they provide utility to buyers.

sottol 3y ago
Do they though when they have armies of bots snatching up released tranches within seconds? Not saying this always happens but it's also not as simple as "people are comfy and thus pay more later". With profits/volume comes "professionalization" (aka "scale") and the regular Joe gets left behind because they're just in it for one ticket and not thousand(s?).
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > the regular Joe gets left behind because they're just in it for one ticket I'm surprised neither Spotify nor Apple has attempted to launch a TicketMaster competitor (or alliance). We have the technology to distribute tickets to listeners first.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    I might be wrong, but I think either you create a two-tier music industry, where Apple Music subscribers can get to concerts first, or you allow anyone to book, at which point you have the same problem Ticketmaster does.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > you create a two-tier music industry, where Apple Music subscribers can get to concerts first, or you allow anyone to book You release based on listening history and e.g. merch purchases. If you limit early release to accounts tied to a personal credit card, you'll limit the scalpers' scale.
      - robertlagrant 3y ago
        Is that the two-tier option?

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> "no, scalpers are good actually" If you think meth is good, sure, that's a valid reading of my comment. Also, I don't know of any multi-millionaire ticket scalpers. They seem more a convenient bogeyman for the ticket-industrial complex than a real problem.

thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
Stubhub is a small family business bootstrapped by hard working folks just like you or I. My bad for saying they are value negative.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Stubhub is a small family business bootstrapped by hard working folks just like you or I. My bad for saying they are value negative. The impliciation that only small outfits can be value positive requires rejecting economies of scale. Which is a fundamental misunderstanding of economics compounded by its limited scope: the entertainment complex to which scalpers attach is massive. The shows which scalpers are attracted to are massive. Small shows don't get scalped.
  - thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
    I was responding to your astute observation not making a broad comment about economies of scale. > I don't know of any multi-millionaire ticket scalpers.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      Is StubHub a ticket scalper?
      - thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
        You are making the argument that "technically" stub hub only enables scalpers but is not actually a scalper themselves. Wonder how far the goalposts have to move before you realize how embarrassing this is for your ideology.

digitcatphd 3y ago

If you believe tickets are not correctly priced to begin with then they simply make the market more efficient and capture this delta between supply and demand.

thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
I'm sure it's just that easy.
- ndriscoll 3y ago
  Isn't it? Couldn't they hold a Dutch auction for tickets, and then if they sold out at too high a price and really wanted to give more access to all of their fans and not just rich ones, add more shows to the tour until tickets clear at an acceptable price? The Dutch auction mechanic would mean that scalpers take on massive risk because anyone willing to pay a higher price would've already had the chance to do so. The artist is able to capture the premium from rich people who want to assure their ticket purchase instead of letting scalpers get that money.
  - thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
    It's almost like there is a reason why they don't do that. But what could it be? https://www.google.com/search?q=angry+at+ticket+prices https://www.google.com/search?q=angry+at+ticket+prices
    - gruez 3y ago
      In other words, the artists are leaving money on the table (by underpricing the tickets), and then fans get mad that other people are capturing said money.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > artists are leaving money on the table (by underpricing the tickets) Artists and ticket vendors underprice tickets to assure sold-out venues: they're choosing to buy lower earnings volatility. The notion that tickets are underpriced to make them accessible is tripe.