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I loved OpenTTD (and Transport Tycoon before that), but since I experienced bot building and copy-paste in Factorio and Mindustry, I can't go back to manually p

I loved OpenTTD (and Transport Tycoon before that), but since I experienced bot building and copy-paste in Factorio and Mindustry, I can't go back to manually place each rail. The auto-rail feature is nice, as is the one where it lets you to semaphore up a straight line with a single mouse drag, but building each rail junction by hand... I just can't find it in me anymore. It feels like typing out boilerplate code by hand.

Beardy 3y ago
Hey, I'll preface this by saying I've never played or contributed to OpenTTD, but I was a little fascinated by your comment. I always wonder when I see feature requests like this, where are the limits that have stopped something like this being added in the past? Are there technical or historical limitations in OpenTTD that you can see from a player that makes it obvious no simple-fix would work without a full overhaul of certain systems? From an outsider, and at the risk of sounding like a project manager right before receiving a whole range of "Sure, but..." answers, it seems like if they already have a system for drawing straight lines, can't it automatically draw a junction when those two lines meet? Also, not to knock those "Sure, but..." answers, there is usually a whole lot of information in the but.
- wruza 3y ago
  Surely no limits, cause computer opponents build proper railways most of the times. I also wish there was an option for "build railway through here-ish, suggest budget classes for landscaping". OpenTTD is a cool game, but you quickly hit all the realistic walls: micromanagement, weak accounting and planning, scale-related issues. As a former ERP guy, it drives me nuts sometimes. Dammit, put all the data into a database, so I can write a proper resource planning system mod with all sorts of reports and automatic orders!
  - npteljes 3y ago
    I agree, I love the game, but the game design is very dated. This is the thing about old games, it's not just that the graphics get old, but the UX, and the game design itself also gets outdated.
    - 15457345234 3y ago
      I think a large element of it is that... these games were not necessarily intended for an adult audience. I remember picking up Transport Tycoon on the coverdisc of some PC magazine. I was in grade school, it was fun. Lots of clicky intricate detail that a child's mind used to narrow horizons could obsess over and learn to minmax. When you came home from school and your world was the inside of your house a game like that seemed like the universe, you obsessed over it because _it's what there was._ Then you... grow up and go outside. Your world expands to a fantastically large size and you move on from small toys. There's just... so much more out there. Sorry to put it so bluntly. (And I have this game installed and fire it up maybe once a year for a bit of nostalgia.)
      - dragontamer 3y ago
        The older generation always had railroad simulators, for the nerdier grandpas out there who really wanted to replicate the railroad signaling systems from the late 1800s or whatever age they were simulating. It just cost real $$$ 50 years ago, since each toy-train and toy-track would have had to have been actually made out of plastic. OpenTTD is easier than that, but harder than most games. Its a better balance (less to learn) than hobby-railroad hobby... cheaper... but still with the complex paths and simulated traffic needed to build a game off of. Its a toy. Plenty of old folks have toys, and IMO it seems like the healthier retired folks I know of are those who continue to play with toys into old age. It could be a selection bias thing, but you have to keep the mind active in the retirement years. ----------- It could be a weird generational gap thing, wherein older folks play with expensive toy sets (ex: lots and lots of rails) in their basements. But younger folk today would have a toy-like video game (like OpenTTD, Minecraft, etc. etc.) instead. I don't think its appropriate to ever "grow out" of toys. I think that... maybe... you run out of time to play with toys during the busier stages of your life. Unlike a "game" where there's a set purpose and therefore a set limit to the complexity... a "toy" game (Rollercoaster Tycoon, OpenTTD, Factorio, etc. etc.) are designed to instead have the players reach complexity levels above-and-beyond what the designers dreamed of.
        TillE 3y ago
- npteljes 3y ago
  Your comment made me look this up, and it turns out that the copy-paste and blueprint functionality goes against the core ideas the original OpenTTD devs have. So it principle, not a technicality. I have found an OpenTTD fork though, CityMania, which has several quality of life patches, including a copy-paste tool. I have just tested it and it works, kind of, but it doesn't copy terrain elevation, so junctions have to be made with bridges, instead of tunnels, to be able to be automatically replicated. https://citymania.org/downloads https://citymania.org/downloads
rasz 3y ago
This is why push&shove routing was so important addition to Kicad :) Once you are exposed to it once you never want to go back. "Kicad push-and-shove routing, 2nd attempt" - Tom W Sep 18, 2013 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxHDAHpR5Ls https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxHDAHpR5Ls
- npteljes 3y ago
  Ooh, it looks really slick. Indeed, this is a far cry from the TTD way of placing each rail by hand.

Beardy 3y ago

Hey, I'll preface this by saying I've never played or contributed to OpenTTD, but I was a little fascinated by your comment. I always wonder when I see feature requests like this, where are the limits that have stopped something like this being added in the past? Are there technical or historical limitations in OpenTTD that you can see from a player that makes it obvious no simple-fix would work without a full overhaul of certain systems? From an outsider, and at the risk of sounding like a project manager right before receiving a whole range of "Sure, but..." answers, it seems like if they already have a system for drawing straight lines, can't it automatically draw a junction when those two lines meet? Also, not to knock those "Sure, but..." answers, there is usually a whole lot of information in the but.

wruza 3y ago
Surely no limits, cause computer opponents build proper railways most of the times. I also wish there was an option for "build railway through here-ish, suggest budget classes for landscaping". OpenTTD is a cool game, but you quickly hit all the realistic walls: micromanagement, weak accounting and planning, scale-related issues. As a former ERP guy, it drives me nuts sometimes. Dammit, put all the data into a database, so I can write a proper resource planning system mod with all sorts of reports and automatic orders!
- npteljes 3y ago
  I agree, I love the game, but the game design is very dated. This is the thing about old games, it's not just that the graphics get old, but the UX, and the game design itself also gets outdated.
  - 15457345234 3y ago
    I think a large element of it is that... these games were not necessarily intended for an adult audience. I remember picking up Transport Tycoon on the coverdisc of some PC magazine. I was in grade school, it was fun. Lots of clicky intricate detail that a child's mind used to narrow horizons could obsess over and learn to minmax. When you came home from school and your world was the inside of your house a game like that seemed like the universe, you obsessed over it because _it's what there was._ Then you... grow up and go outside. Your world expands to a fantastically large size and you move on from small toys. There's just... so much more out there. Sorry to put it so bluntly. (And I have this game installed and fire it up maybe once a year for a bit of nostalgia.)
    - dragontamer 3y ago
      The older generation always had railroad simulators, for the nerdier grandpas out there who really wanted to replicate the railroad signaling systems from the late 1800s or whatever age they were simulating. It just cost real $$$ 50 years ago, since each toy-train and toy-track would have had to have been actually made out of plastic. OpenTTD is easier than that, but harder than most games. Its a better balance (less to learn) than hobby-railroad hobby... cheaper... but still with the complex paths and simulated traffic needed to build a game off of. Its a toy. Plenty of old folks have toys, and IMO it seems like the healthier retired folks I know of are those who continue to play with toys into old age. It could be a selection bias thing, but you have to keep the mind active in the retirement years. ----------- It could be a weird generational gap thing, wherein older folks play with expensive toy sets (ex: lots and lots of rails) in their basements. But younger folk today would have a toy-like video game (like OpenTTD, Minecraft, etc. etc.) instead. I don't think its appropriate to ever "grow out" of toys. I think that... maybe... you run out of time to play with toys during the busier stages of your life. Unlike a "game" where there's a set purpose and therefore a set limit to the complexity... a "toy" game (Rollercoaster Tycoon, OpenTTD, Factorio, etc. etc.) are designed to instead have the players reach complexity levels above-and-beyond what the designers dreamed of.
      - TillE 3y ago
npteljes 3y ago
Your comment made me look this up, and it turns out that the copy-paste and blueprint functionality goes against the core ideas the original OpenTTD devs have. So it principle, not a technicality. I have found an OpenTTD fork though, CityMania, which has several quality of life patches, including a copy-paste tool. I have just tested it and it works, kind of, but it doesn't copy terrain elevation, so junctions have to be made with bridges, instead of tunnels, to be able to be automatically replicated. https://citymania.org/downloads https://citymania.org/downloads

rasz 3y ago

This is why push&shove routing was so important addition to Kicad :) Once you are exposed to it once you never want to go back. "Kicad push-and-shove routing, 2nd attempt" - Tom W Sep 18, 2013 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxHDAHpR5Ls https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxHDAHpR5Ls

npteljes 3y ago
Ooh, it looks really slick. Indeed, this is a far cry from the TTD way of placing each rail by hand.