4 ms·

I’m in the US, with European family (parent, cousins, etc.) and I can’t count the number of comments that I’ve heard or read that begin with “I am from Europe”

I’m in the US, with European family (parent, cousins, etc.) and I can’t count the number of comments that I’ve heard or read that begin with “I am from Europe” and go on to make a very sensible, reasonable assertion about how things ought to be in the US. Well, they aren’t that way. However your town works, Detroit is different. NYC is different. Tampa is different. At some point the person who is repeatedly surprised at what doesn’t make sense to them has an obligation to either accept that their expectations aren’t universal, or to dig deeper. Maintaining perpetual shock and confusion is not a sign of moral righteousness or principle, it’s provincial.

inamorty 3y ago
So it should not be assumed to be a functioning first world country?
superb_dev 3y ago
You don't think this is the place to share a sensible solution to the problem we're discussing?
matkoniecz 3y ago
Well, info that some problem does not exist elsewhere at all and there is an obvious solution to that is useful. Even if that means that situation in USA is sad/broken.
Log_out_ 3y ago
? A region has such a weak rule of law, that police can terrorize a man without consequences - and a person from a vast region of various states were that is rather unheard of (and people travel way more) is provincial for calling that out? I'm honestly confused. We had some "valley rulers" in europe, but the law tends to get rid of them, bloodfeuds and other idiocies included. And any low point ought to remain shocking. Getting numb to pain is not normal.
sebasv_ 3y ago
I understand your frustration about the "I'm from Europe" comments, but you have to appreciate that those comments come from a similar frustration. The universally shared image of the US is that they loudmouth how great they are compared to the rest of the world. So when news comes out on how the US fails so dramatically on very basic public/social services, it leaves people from outside the US stumped.
- nopromisessir 3y ago
  I'd be interested to see evidence supporting your assertion of 'universally shared image'. The image of the United States is perceived not nearly so negative in the counties which I visited: Jordan, China, Vietnam. I'll add a fourth country, which I haven't visited. The image of the United States in Israel, while complex, includes a great deal of admiration. As a country with security always top of mind, overall Israel broadly admires the United States' extensive defense capability and power. I doubt most Israelis would describe the US as 'loudmouth'. Similar nuances could be laid out for the countries I listed above. Many world citizens can parse media of a random football fan screaming 'USA!' from the state department's lengthy policy positions. The perceived image you describe resembles most closely to me a self reflection found often within the US. Nonetheless, I do think our culture could stand to posture in a more reserved fashion broadly, while not being afraid to mention where appropriate... We remain a positive world standout in a variety ways.
  - chmod775 3y ago
    > Many world citizens can parse media of a random football fan screaming 'USA!' from the state department's lengthy policy positions. Most recently, I believe, the main contributor to that image was the former president of the US, not some American at the FIFA World Cup. Trump providing nonstop material for satire and comedy shows didn't help either. In general the international image of the US seems to be better under democrat presidents. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/06/10/americas-image-abroad-rebounds-with-transition-from-trump-to-biden/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/06/10/americas-image... That article broadly matches with my personal observations as a European. > I can say with high confidence that the image of the United States is perceived not nearly so negative in the following counties which I personally visited: Jordan, China, Vietnam. Eh. I can't speak to Jordan or Vietnam, but in China opinions on the US are usually a toss up. US (cultural) exports are warring with opinionated news that doesn't portray the US any better than US news portrays China. > As a country with security always top of mind, overall Israel broadly admires the United States' extensive defense capability and power. I doubt most Israelis would describe the US as 'loudmouth'. You're right that overall Israelis have an extremely favorable opinion of the US (ignoring their Arab population of course), however I have to point out these opinions aren't mutually exclusive. The only surprising thing about Israel is that Trump apparently was more liked there than Biden is. They still seem to think Trump is more arrogant though. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/07/11/israeli-views-of-the-us-2/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/07/11/israeli-views-...
schiffern 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/'No_Way_to_Prevent_This,'_Says_Only_Nation_Where_This_Regularly_Happens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/'No_Way_to_Prevent_This,'_Says...
lukan 3y ago
So why do you think it is necessary in the US, to swat someones house because of a anonymous call and not in europe?
- timeon 3y ago
  Since it is defined in constitution, one should not be surprised, that US police expects anyone could be armed.
  - ummonk 3y ago
    The constitution also says “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated”
  - lukan 3y ago
    More so, than in EU yes, but here there are also lots of weapons in private homes. They still don't kick in doors, because of anonymous calls. And if I could make a bet, I doubt that they treat the houses of rich people the same way. Because they have the means to sue, to fight back.
  - AniseAbyss 3y ago
    [dead]
yarekt 3y ago
You are right about this. I think people outside of US have a hard time imagining a place where first response basically requires guns and violence
- skrebbel 3y ago
  We mostly have a hard time reconciling that with the idea of a developed nation.
ben_w 3y ago
> or to dig deeper. I think they're asking you to dig deeper. > However your town works, Detroit is different. NYC is different. Tampa is different. Yup. But you know what? Europe isn't just one town either. It's not even one country, one currency, one language, or one alphabet. Αθήνα isn't Berlin isn't Paris; Cambridge isn't like London isn't like Glasgow isn't like Belfast, and only the latter has "RPG Avenue" nicknamed due to the weapon fired at the cops, and yet the English (do not go to Belfast and describe it as "England") are so anti-gun that even the cops don't want to be armed. America isn't unique in being diverse, it's not even half as diverse as its self image makes claim. Learn about the differences that mean the rest of us don't face your challenges, and then use that to make your cities better.
- yencabulator 3y ago
  > America isn't unique in being diverse, As a European who spent 3 years driving all around the western half of the US, I really wouldn't even call America very diverse. The climate changes more than the people. The difference between city and rural is bigger than the difference between north and south; rural people in Montana and Arizona just aren't that different.
Geisterde 3y ago
An interesting point that I am amenable too, I certainly appreciate the mental connections you make here. Though, I could say that based on these comments this isnt a universal problem, and that preserving a police force that has no regard for civil rights is not a sign of, say, conservative values, its fear. I am well aware that we have gang violence and all types of problems. What I do not see is a justification for things like violating someones property, repeatedly. The man has no obligation to cooperate with shit, and the police have no right to barge in anyways, that isnt how probably cause is supposed to work.
disruptiveink 3y ago
They are reminding you that the reality you are experiencing is not normal and should not be normalised. They are stating that it is not only possible to not be like this, but it's actually a baseline expectation in most of the rest of the developed world. You can keep burying your head in the sand, make excuses for unacceptable behaviour such as swatting with "but it's extraordinary circumstances with very specific context" and bemoan the "provincials" for expecting the US behaves, or at least trends towards, a society that resembles the rest of the democratic, civilized world. Or you can say enough, and demand action. One is a lot easier than the other.
wkat4242 3y ago
Well yes but the mindset is different. A relative worked at the police in downtown Amsterdam. Where gang violence is also a problem, only a few years ago people had to duck in a tram to avoid stray bullets from gangs firing automatic weapons. This didn't really cause a militarisation of the police though. The problem with that is that it leads to further escalation on both sides. And ordinary people can get caught up in that like what is happening with the swatting. Also I've lived in many different EU countries and swatting is just not a thing anywhere. The US really is pretty unique in this phenomenon within the western world.
- ummonk 3y ago
  For all the problems caused by militarization of the police, is there any evidence that it leads to “escalation on both sides”? Gangs using automatic weapons seems to be escalated well beyond America already.

inamorty 3y ago

So it should not be assumed to be a functioning first world country?

superb_dev 3y ago

You don't think this is the place to share a sensible solution to the problem we're discussing?

matkoniecz 3y ago

Well, info that some problem does not exist elsewhere at all and there is an obvious solution to that is useful. Even if that means that situation in USA is sad/broken.

Log_out_ 3y ago

? A region has such a weak rule of law, that police can terrorize a man without consequences - and a person from a vast region of various states were that is rather unheard of (and people travel way more) is provincial for calling that out? I'm honestly confused. We had some "valley rulers" in europe, but the law tends to get rid of them, bloodfeuds and other idiocies included. And any low point ought to remain shocking. Getting numb to pain is not normal.

sebasv_ 3y ago

I understand your frustration about the "I'm from Europe" comments, but you have to appreciate that those comments come from a similar frustration. The universally shared image of the US is that they loudmouth how great they are compared to the rest of the world. So when news comes out on how the US fails so dramatically on very basic public/social services, it leaves people from outside the US stumped.

nopromisessir 3y ago
I'd be interested to see evidence supporting your assertion of 'universally shared image'. The image of the United States is perceived not nearly so negative in the counties which I visited: Jordan, China, Vietnam. I'll add a fourth country, which I haven't visited. The image of the United States in Israel, while complex, includes a great deal of admiration. As a country with security always top of mind, overall Israel broadly admires the United States' extensive defense capability and power. I doubt most Israelis would describe the US as 'loudmouth'. Similar nuances could be laid out for the countries I listed above. Many world citizens can parse media of a random football fan screaming 'USA!' from the state department's lengthy policy positions. The perceived image you describe resembles most closely to me a self reflection found often within the US. Nonetheless, I do think our culture could stand to posture in a more reserved fashion broadly, while not being afraid to mention where appropriate... We remain a positive world standout in a variety ways.
- chmod775 3y ago
  > Many world citizens can parse media of a random football fan screaming 'USA!' from the state department's lengthy policy positions. Most recently, I believe, the main contributor to that image was the former president of the US, not some American at the FIFA World Cup. Trump providing nonstop material for satire and comedy shows didn't help either. In general the international image of the US seems to be better under democrat presidents. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/06/10/americas-image-abroad-rebounds-with-transition-from-trump-to-biden/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/06/10/americas-image... That article broadly matches with my personal observations as a European. > I can say with high confidence that the image of the United States is perceived not nearly so negative in the following counties which I personally visited: Jordan, China, Vietnam. Eh. I can't speak to Jordan or Vietnam, but in China opinions on the US are usually a toss up. US (cultural) exports are warring with opinionated news that doesn't portray the US any better than US news portrays China. > As a country with security always top of mind, overall Israel broadly admires the United States' extensive defense capability and power. I doubt most Israelis would describe the US as 'loudmouth'. You're right that overall Israelis have an extremely favorable opinion of the US (ignoring their Arab population of course), however I have to point out these opinions aren't mutually exclusive. The only surprising thing about Israel is that Trump apparently was more liked there than Biden is. They still seem to think Trump is more arrogant though. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/07/11/israeli-views-of-the-us-2/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/07/11/israeli-views-...

schiffern 3y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/'No_Way_to_Prevent_This,'_Says_Only_Nation_Where_This_Regularly_Happens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/'No_Way_to_Prevent_This,'_Says...

lukan 3y ago

So why do you think it is necessary in the US, to swat someones house because of a anonymous call and not in europe?

timeon 3y ago
Since it is defined in constitution, one should not be surprised, that US police expects anyone could be armed.
- ummonk 3y ago
  The constitution also says “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated”
- lukan 3y ago
  More so, than in EU yes, but here there are also lots of weapons in private homes. They still don't kick in doors, because of anonymous calls. And if I could make a bet, I doubt that they treat the houses of rich people the same way. Because they have the means to sue, to fight back.
- AniseAbyss 3y ago
  [dead]

yarekt 3y ago

You are right about this. I think people outside of US have a hard time imagining a place where first response basically requires guns and violence

skrebbel 3y ago
We mostly have a hard time reconciling that with the idea of a developed nation.

ben_w 3y ago

> or to dig deeper. I think they're asking you to dig deeper. > However your town works, Detroit is different. NYC is different. Tampa is different. Yup. But you know what? Europe isn't just one town either. It's not even one country, one currency, one language, or one alphabet. Αθήνα isn't Berlin isn't Paris; Cambridge isn't like London isn't like Glasgow isn't like Belfast, and only the latter has "RPG Avenue" nicknamed due to the weapon fired at the cops, and yet the English (do not go to Belfast and describe it as "England") are so anti-gun that even the cops don't want to be armed. America isn't unique in being diverse, it's not even half as diverse as its self image makes claim. Learn about the differences that mean the rest of us don't face your challenges, and then use that to make your cities better.

yencabulator 3y ago
> America isn't unique in being diverse, As a European who spent 3 years driving all around the western half of the US, I really wouldn't even call America very diverse. The climate changes more than the people. The difference between city and rural is bigger than the difference between north and south; rural people in Montana and Arizona just aren't that different.

Geisterde 3y ago

An interesting point that I am amenable too, I certainly appreciate the mental connections you make here. Though, I could say that based on these comments this isnt a universal problem, and that preserving a police force that has no regard for civil rights is not a sign of, say, conservative values, its fear. I am well aware that we have gang violence and all types of problems. What I do not see is a justification for things like violating someones property, repeatedly. The man has no obligation to cooperate with shit, and the police have no right to barge in anyways, that isnt how probably cause is supposed to work.

disruptiveink 3y ago

They are reminding you that the reality you are experiencing is not normal and should not be normalised. They are stating that it is not only possible to not be like this, but it's actually a baseline expectation in most of the rest of the developed world. You can keep burying your head in the sand, make excuses for unacceptable behaviour such as swatting with "but it's extraordinary circumstances with very specific context" and bemoan the "provincials" for expecting the US behaves, or at least trends towards, a society that resembles the rest of the democratic, civilized world. Or you can say enough, and demand action. One is a lot easier than the other.

wkat4242 3y ago

Well yes but the mindset is different. A relative worked at the police in downtown Amsterdam. Where gang violence is also a problem, only a few years ago people had to duck in a tram to avoid stray bullets from gangs firing automatic weapons. This didn't really cause a militarisation of the police though. The problem with that is that it leads to further escalation on both sides. And ordinary people can get caught up in that like what is happening with the swatting. Also I've lived in many different EU countries and swatting is just not a thing anywhere. The US really is pretty unique in this phenomenon within the western world.

ummonk 3y ago
For all the problems caused by militarization of the police, is there any evidence that it leads to “escalation on both sides”? Gangs using automatic weapons seems to be escalated well beyond America already.