3 ms·

The restrictive zoning practices, long approval processes ridiculous permitting costs etc are in place because most people's entire net worth is held up in hous

The restrictive zoning practices, long approval processes ridiculous permitting costs etc are in place because most people's entire net worth is held up in housing and they vote for laws that keep the price high for that reason. It's completely backwards to think that the reason why housing is expensive is because of those symptoms when the root cause is more than half the population wants mega high housing costs.

losteric 3y ago
If height limits were raised with zoning for multi family housing, those investments would sky rocket faster than under NIMBY
- thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
  And yet here we are
- nradov 3y ago
  Despite the uniformed nonsense you might read here, the most active NIMBYs aren't primarily motivated by property values. If you actually talk to them you'll find that they have no wish to ever sell and are worried (sometimes irrationally) about quality of life issues: noise, parking, traffic, crime, privacy, etc.
  - thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
    Tell me more about how they don't care about their property value they are simply trying to uphold the character of the neighborhood. Really the property owners and landlords are the victims here.
    - beaeglebeached 3y ago
      Imagine you spend half your working class life saving for an absolute shit hole for half a million, knowing it's an NFT that no one can build more of. Then permitting laws are liberalized and suddenly your NFT is worth no more than the labor and material cost to physically build the house, minus depreciation. It's difficult because losing that NFT means they are fucked in retirement. Oh well for them, stupid them for wanting a house while nimby zoning was in effect. The losers unfortunately won't be the boomers that made the dumbass laws but the people they squeezed afterwards. It's a totally fucked situation.
      - thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
        I hope it's clear that I'm not blaming the average person caught up in the housing market for the broader climate in which they live. It is fucked and I don't see a way out. If we build enough housing the price of their retirement asset drops and they are fucked and if we don't then we continue seeing mass homelessness and dropping birth rates. I don't have a solution, I'm commenting that the typical things that are blamed for the housing shortage are symptoms not causes.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - imgabe 3y ago
        The value is in the land, not the house. If you own a plot of land with a single family house on it, and suddenly someone is able to build an apartment building on that piece of land, it will actually become much more valuable because an apartment building generates much more revenue than a SFH. They could easily sell the land to a developer and retire somewhere else.
        rcxdude 3y ago
        It's not obvious that would stay fixed: depending on the dynamics of the market, it could go up, it cold go down (The demand is for housing, not land. If you manage to increase supply for housing sufficiently by increasing density, then the value is the land could go down even if you could build many more homes on it than before). I agree it's not certain that it would go down, however.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        beaeglebeached 3y ago
        It becomes obvious as housing density approaches infinity. Why would anyone buy your land for housing if they need one tiny spec to house a billion? This is simple supply and demand, high density housing lowers land value, as price isn't determined primarily by potential utility .
    - nradov 3y ago
      You misunderstand. Most of them aren't specifically concerned with neighborhood character. They are mostly long-term resident homeowners (not landlords) who don't want the hassle and annoyance that comes with higher density. If you want to counteract their efforts then at least understand their motivations instead of treating them like caracitures.
      - presentation 3y ago
        At some point someone with authority just has to draw the line. Those people’s desires to not be hassled is not important, and the need for sufficient housing supply is.

losteric 3y ago

If height limits were raised with zoning for multi family housing, those investments would sky rocket faster than under NIMBY

thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
And yet here we are
nradov 3y ago
Despite the uniformed nonsense you might read here, the most active NIMBYs aren't primarily motivated by property values. If you actually talk to them you'll find that they have no wish to ever sell and are worried (sometimes irrationally) about quality of life issues: noise, parking, traffic, crime, privacy, etc.
- thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
  Tell me more about how they don't care about their property value they are simply trying to uphold the character of the neighborhood. Really the property owners and landlords are the victims here.
  - beaeglebeached 3y ago
    Imagine you spend half your working class life saving for an absolute shit hole for half a million, knowing it's an NFT that no one can build more of. Then permitting laws are liberalized and suddenly your NFT is worth no more than the labor and material cost to physically build the house, minus depreciation. It's difficult because losing that NFT means they are fucked in retirement. Oh well for them, stupid them for wanting a house while nimby zoning was in effect. The losers unfortunately won't be the boomers that made the dumbass laws but the people they squeezed afterwards. It's a totally fucked situation.
    - thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
      I hope it's clear that I'm not blaming the average person caught up in the housing market for the broader climate in which they live. It is fucked and I don't see a way out. If we build enough housing the price of their retirement asset drops and they are fucked and if we don't then we continue seeing mass homelessness and dropping birth rates. I don't have a solution, I'm commenting that the typical things that are blamed for the housing shortage are symptoms not causes.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - imgabe 3y ago
      The value is in the land, not the house. If you own a plot of land with a single family house on it, and suddenly someone is able to build an apartment building on that piece of land, it will actually become much more valuable because an apartment building generates much more revenue than a SFH. They could easily sell the land to a developer and retire somewhere else.
      - rcxdude 3y ago
        It's not obvious that would stay fixed: depending on the dynamics of the market, it could go up, it cold go down (The demand is for housing, not land. If you manage to increase supply for housing sufficiently by increasing density, then the value is the land could go down even if you could build many more homes on it than before). I agree it's not certain that it would go down, however.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        beaeglebeached 3y ago
        It becomes obvious as housing density approaches infinity. Why would anyone buy your land for housing if they need one tiny spec to house a billion? This is simple supply and demand, high density housing lowers land value, as price isn't determined primarily by potential utility .
  - nradov 3y ago
    You misunderstand. Most of them aren't specifically concerned with neighborhood character. They are mostly long-term resident homeowners (not landlords) who don't want the hassle and annoyance that comes with higher density. If you want to counteract their efforts then at least understand their motivations instead of treating them like caracitures.
    - presentation 3y ago
      At some point someone with authority just has to draw the line. Those people’s desires to not be hassled is not important, and the need for sufficient housing supply is.